# Lost 5.16/5.17 "The Incident" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 13, 2009, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-16-5-17-the-incident/496317 "2009-05-13T18:16:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-16-5-17-the-incident/496317/121 "2009-05-14T14:32:43Z")
Here’s a summary of [Everything That Rises Must Converge](http://litsum.com/everything-that-rises-must-converge/). My brother noted that it went from #700 to #105 on Amazon’s top seller list overnight 🙂 Reading the summary all I can guess about how that book relates to Lost is 1) The spiffy title 2) It’s about the struggle between black and white. If I delve deeper I might say it’s about a young man (Ben) who struggles between being grateful for his whiteness (Dharma) but is pushed towards being sympathetic to the blacks (The Others) just to spite his family. ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-16-5-17-the-incident/496317/122 "2009-05-14T14:45:53Z")
> [@Alias](#): > > The actress playing young Kate looked just like her when she glared at the store owner. It was spooky. That was an excellent job of casting. She looked just like her, down to the freckles. > [@Monstre](#): > > Had to record the show earlier tonight. Watching now. Some impressions as I watch: > > * * * > > Tease! Let Lapidus see into the box, but not us? Just had a strange notion that maybe it’s Locke’s body, and he really is dead, and “live Locke” is an impostor. Probably not, but Locke seems a little more vicious than he used to: > “Then we have to take care of the other passengers of Ajira 315 that brought me here.” > “What do you mean?” > “You know what I mean, Richard.” I had a suspicion that Locke’s body was in the box, I think someone here even mentioned that possibility before, but when Locke said that to Richard about dealing with the other passengers I was sure that wasn’t really Locke. And yes, it was very disappointing to find he really is dead because we were finally getting to see Locke turn the tables on Ben and be badass again like he was in the first season. > [@](#): > > “What about you?” Weird. Almost like Jacob wanted to goad Ben into it. I think it was meant to be ambivalent. He didn’t say it sarcastically, it was more like it was intended for Ben to think a little more about where he fits in to everything but instead he just went stabby. Well, as a plan it had maybe a 50/50 chance of working. Another random thought, the guys on this show sure can take a beating. ---
**Author:** ![middleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@middleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/middleman)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-16-5-17-the-incident/496317/123 "2009-05-14T14:46:36Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > Anyway, does anyone know the name of the actor playing Jacob? He’s not in IMDB, and he looks familiar. I’ve not seen any of his work on Dexter, but he strongly resembled the lead actor from Rome (and who is currently on Grey’s Anatomy). I enjoyed the Jacob character! Is he God? He sure seems omnipotent. The only thing we really know is that he was not the captain of the Black Rock. I still think Richard was. I think Richard has five toes like everyone else. Did we see Jacob’s feet on the beach? > [@Smeghead](#): > > I think that was their way of writing them out of the show. I think we’ve seen the last of them. > [@Rusalka](#): > > The problem with Rose and Bernard’s ambivalence is if Jack is successful and their plane never crashes on the island, they never get a nice “retirement” because Rose had incurable cancer, remember? I agree with Smeghead. I don’t think they care if the timeline reverse and she got cancer. I think their point was that they enjoyed every single day that life gave them together. I hope we never seen them again until it is revealed that they are Adam and Eve. > [@cmyk](#): > > Obviously something big and cosmic is going on; a struggle between these two to try and prove some big point about humanity? Jacob and “Esau” must be some entities of good/evil or freewill/fate that have lived for ages. Are they human? Did they start out human, and were possessed by these entities? Are they from the far future, messing around in their past (our present)? Are they aliens? Cyborgs? Nano-bots? I’m running out of sci-fi cliches… My wife, who is not a scifi/fantasy fan, summarized the show pretty well. She said that now that there are gods, devils, etc on the show, we have no way of knowing anything that is going to happen as all the rules are out the window. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > It’s too bad they turned Juliet into a big douche in this episode. “You glanced at Kate! Fuck it, let’s blow up the island!” - wherever Kate goes, something stupid and annoying is sure to follow. I assume that in this alternate reality, there is an analogous version of **middleman** there. Speaking on behalf of my multiverse counterpart, I wish that the decisions of the space-time continuum were based more on reason and logic rather than middle school relationship drama. Hey, let’s nuke the space-time continuum over a fickle bitch who steals New Kids on the Block lunchboxes! And now Juliet is dead. I have a feeling that the big Sawyer-Kate reunion will not be as happy as the producers hope. > [@](#): > > There also seemed to be no motivation for Dharma to drill so urgently. Dr… uh.. candle, whatever his real name is, who seems to be in charge of the whole project tells them to stop, their drill is overheating, their instruments are going wild, and people are coming to stop them. Why does the drilling have to take place NOW NOW NOW? Do they all get cash bonuses if they finish up by the end of the day? Perhaps you should step back and think this one through… I’ll defend our crazy scientist a bit (though the completion bonus cracks me up!)Radzinsky was racing against the hostiles. He thought that if he didn’t do it THEN, that the chaos surrounding the O6 and the Hostiles would undo his plans. I was intrigued with his “I came here to save the world!” line. Dude is just really driven to the point of madness. I can respect that. > [@Fenris](#): > > Hm…have we EVER seen the real Locke except in flashbacks? Even back in season 1 he was talking about backgammon being a struggle between light and dark. Maybe he’s been controlled by the anti-Jacob (to one degree or another) since the plane crash and his weird mood swings were him fighting the control–which would explain his constant flip-flops about the Button in the Hatch) > [@cmyk](#): > > Also, so Locke really did get murdered (for good) by Ben. That’s so tragic. Poor Locke. He was so used, all his life. My question about Locke goes back to season one when he “looked into the eye of the island.” Was that when the transformation began? Will real Locke return? Because I don’t buy “dead is dead.” I think Jacob resurrected Locke when he fell. > [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > I think it pretty clear that the “loophole” was the ability to kill Jacob and assumably break the cycle. I’d wager that the problem was that anyone who was touched by Jacob couldn’t kill him. Locke might have been able to do it, but he died. Thus, Ben was the key. The fact that Jacob refused to see Ben led to Ben being able to take him out. Giving Jacob’s goating I’m guessing this is what Jacob wanted to happen as well. Fascinating stuff. I wonder does the “loophole” have anything to do with the “Rules” between Ben and Widmore. Either way, I am stoked for Season 6. I think we are kind of starting to see the endgame here. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-16-5-17-the-incident/496317/124 "2009-05-14T14:50:11Z")
I suspect the original context of the phrase “everything that rises…” is much more relevant to “Lost”: “Everything That Rises Must Converge” refers to the ideas of a Jesuit theologian and scientist named Pierre Teilhard de Chardin (1881-1955). In a book called The Phenomenon of Man (1955), which attempts to reconcile the science of evolution with a Christian vision, Teilhard theorizes that after the rise of homo sapiens evolution continues on a spiritual level toward a level of pure consciousness called Being. [!] from [http://http://www.answers.com/topic/everything-that-rises-must-converge-story-6](http://http://www.answers.com/topic/everything-that-rises-must-converge-story-6) ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-16-5-17-the-incident/496317/125 "2009-05-14T15:04:25Z")
> [@middleman](#): > > I assume that in this alternate reality, there is an analogous version of **middleman** there. Speaking on behalf of my multiverse counterpart, I wish that the decisions of the space-time continuum were based more on reason and logic rather than middle school relationship drama. Hey, let’s nuke the space-time continuum over a fickle bitch who steals New Kids on the Block lunchboxes! Which just further underscores how young Kate is compared to all of the other Losties. You don’t think about it a lot, but the Kate flashbacks always seem to bring home the fact that she’s still only in her 20s. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-16-5-17-the-incident/496317/126 "2009-05-14T15:20:38Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > I’m kind of glad that Locke is dead. The show made a major point to emphasize dead is dead, and Locke’s apparant resurrection undermined that. Well..except for the appearances of Mr Eko’s brother, Christian Shephard, Libby, Ana-Lucia, Ben’s daughter and a few others I can’t think of. And Mikhail seemed pretty hard to kill once and for all. And Michael couldn’t die until the island wanted him to. ---
**Author:** ![Shoeless](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shoeless/32/7099_2.png) [@Shoeless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shoeless)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-16-5-17-the-incident/496317/127 "2009-05-14T15:54:46Z")
> [@middleman](#): > > My question about Locke goes back to season one when he “looked into the eye of the island.” Was that when the transformation began? Will real Locke return? Because I don’t buy “dead is dead.” I think Jacob resurrected Locke when he fell. Yeah, I was thinking about Season 1 when Locke “looked into the eye of the island” and was almost pulled underground by the smoke monster. I kind of wondered if that’s when Esau first got his hooks in him. (I think someone upthread mentioned that they thought Esau was NOT the smoke monster, but I’m not so sure.) ---
**Author:** ![middleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@middleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/middleman)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-16-5-17-the-incident/496317/128 "2009-05-14T15:58:54Z")
I forgot to add to my post, does anyone have any ideas on the design structure of Ben’s house in Dharmaville? That is clearly where they came up. Does it hold up to the structure shown in previous episodes? ---
**Author:** ![fiddlesticks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddlesticks/32/18129_2.png) [@fiddlesticks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fiddlesticks)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-16-5-17-the-incident/496317/129 "2009-05-14T15:59:10Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Which just further underscores how young Kate is compared to all of the other Losties. You don’t think about it a lot, but the Kate flashbacks always seem to bring home the fact that she’s still only in her 20s. Except Hurley…but then fat guys only hook up with hot girls in the sitcom universe so there’s no tension there. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-16-5-17-the-incident/496317/130 "2009-05-14T16:03:56Z")
> [@Wile\_E](#): > > That was an excellent job of casting. She looked just like her, down to the freckles.. Except that Kate doesn’t really have any noticible freckles. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-16-5-17-the-incident/496317/131 "2009-05-14T16:28:06Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Well..except for the appearances of Mr Eko’s brother, Christian Shephard, Libby, Ana-Lucia, Ben’s daughter and a few others I can’t think of. And Mikhail seemed pretty hard to kill once and for all. And Michael couldn’t die until the island wanted him to. Did any of the people who appeared after death do so off the island? ---
**Author:** ![Caricci](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85f322/32.png) [@Caricci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caricci)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-16-5-17-the-incident/496317/132 "2009-05-14T16:36:22Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Did any of the people who appeared after death do so off the island? Ana Lucia pulled Hurley over after he left the island. ---
**Author:** ![Alias](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a88e4f/32.png) [@Alias](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alias)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-16-5-17-the-incident/496317/133 "2009-05-14T16:38:18Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Except that Kate doesn’t really have any noticible freckles. She does, but they’re faint. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-16-5-17-the-incident/496317/134 "2009-05-14T16:38:24Z")
They’ve made a big deal about Hurley being “special,” although Christian appeared to Jack off-island too. ---
**Author:** ![Ichini\_Sanshigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/d9b06d/32.png) [@Ichini\_Sanshigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ichini_Sanshigo)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-16-5-17-the-incident/496317/135 "2009-05-14T16:45:21Z")
I think Esau didn’t _find_ the loophole - he _made_ the loophole! If we believe that Esau is Smoky is the shapeshifter who takes on the forms of dead people, then he was the one who got Ben, then Locke to push the donkey wheel in the first place and send the losties jumping through time. When they ended up in 1977, it enabled them to lead up to the actions that created this loop in time (the incident \> the swan hatch and the necessity of pushing the button \> Desmond’s miss \> the plane crash \> Seasons 1 through 4 \> the jump back in time \> events at Dharma Town \> Faraday’s advice \> the incident). The loop was sealed when the Losties cause the Incident in the past, thus allowing Esau his chance to kill Jacob (or get someone else to do it) in the present. I’m still not entirely convinced that Jacob’s the “good guy”, or that the good guy/ bad guy labels even apply. I just know it sucks that poor Ben and Locke ended up being pawns in someone else’s game. They both just wanted to be loved. So sad. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-16-5-17-the-incident/496317/136 "2009-05-14T16:52:28Z")
> [@well\_he\_s\_back](#): > > Charlie’s ring in the cradle So **that’s** what that was! I kept trying to think of what character had the initials D.S. and was coming up blank. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-16-5-17-the-incident/496317/137 "2009-05-14T16:55:59Z")
> [@Caricci](#): > > > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > > > Did any of the people who appeared after death do so off the island? > > Ana Lucia pulled Hurley over after he left the island. Hurley also saw Charlie at another point, but no one else saw Charlie or Ana Lucia. I believe those were just hallucinations. But the dead people who reappeared on the island were seen by multiple people and were something other than a hallucination. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-16-5-17-the-incident/496317/138 "2009-05-14T16:57:34Z")
I’m thinking the Cabin is how Jacob/Esau “manifest” themselves into other people. Remember how Alana said someone else is “using it”? Some all the earlier appearances of “ghosts” was Jacob’s doing. And then at some point Esau took it over, presumably sometime after Ben/Locke went to visit him. ---
**Author:** ![the\_thecat\_hat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecd19e/32.png) [@the\_thecat\_hat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_thecat_hat)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-16-5-17-the-incident/496317/139 "2009-05-14T16:58:45Z")
There was a scene that I did not follow; maybe someone can help. When Jacob talked to the woman in bandages. I thought he called her Anna, but I’m not clear. Anna Lucia? What did he say to her? Did he touch her? Did she know who he was? ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-16-5-17-the-incident/496317/140 "2009-05-14T17:00:48Z")
> [@the\_thecat\_hat](#): > > There was a scene that I did not follow; maybe someone can help. When Jacob talked to the woman in bandages. I thought he called her Anna, but I’m not clear. Anna Lucia? What did he say to her? Did he touch her? Did she know who he was? It was Illana, not Anna-Lucia. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-16-5-17-the-incident/496317.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-16-5-17-the-incident/496317.md?page=8)