# Lost 5.3 "Jughead" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 28, 2009, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-3-jughead/483415 "2009-01-28T19:04:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-3-jughead/483415/81 "2009-01-29T22:34:54Z")
> [@well\_he\_s\_back](#): > > Richard was anti-Dharma: he helped Ben in his Dharma-cide, wherein Ben’s father, et al, were killed. Then Ben, Richard, and Richard’s folks took over Dharma’s ranch. (oops - like Middleman said before me) He’s anti-DHARMA in the 80’s when he apparently recruits Ben and overthrows DHARMA, but what about in 1954? At that time it seems like there are only 2 power brokers on the island, the Army and Richard’s people (under Jacob?), and the uniforms that Richard’s people are wearing look like they are very DHARMA-esque with the name tags and stuff. No DHARMA logo yet, but maybe they are the ones that get DHARMA rolling. Maybe they are the ones that uncover many of the island’s powers when the bomb is introduced. Do we know when DHARMA gets started? When those Orientation videos were shot and when Dr. Marvin Candle gets those stations built? ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-3-jughead/483415/82 "2009-01-29T22:39:04Z")
> [@well\_he\_s\_back](#): > > The woman in the picture in the lab is also the girl in the coma, Elizabeth Spencer? Wait, who’s Elizabeth Spencer? Is that Libby? ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-3-jughead/483415/83 "2009-01-29T22:40:01Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > That (to me) is because Desmond, along with Hurley and (nowdays) Sawyer, are the only three characters who aren’t raging assholes. > > No hidden agendas, no deep soul-destroying secrets, no super-duper complicated Machiavellian plots, just “Do the right thing”. > > I _like_ that there’s all these sneaky, nasty, unlikable characters around, mind you–but only 'cause you have Desmond, Hurley and Sawyer. I would add that if I never see Jack again that would be OK. On the other hand, could we please get back to Claire? The last we saw her was in Jacob’s cabin with her (and Jack’s) ghost/alive dad. Then…nothing. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-3-jughead/483415/84 "2009-01-29T22:41:55Z")
My theory is that Widmore was the leader of the Others. But, destiny being a fickle bitch and all, Jacob decides that it’s time for Ben to take over. It seems that once you lose your spot as the leader, you’re forced to leave the island and never come back. But Widmore doesn’t like the way he lost control and has spent the rest of his life trying to figure out how to get back. This is probably why he recruited Faraday, to hopefully figure out the way back the same way his mother is doing for Ben. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-3-jughead/483415/85 "2009-01-29T22:43:49Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > Wait, who’s Elizabeth Spencer? Is that Libby? Elizabeth Spencer is the girl in the coma that Daniel experimented on. She’s a new person. No known connection to anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-3-jughead/483415/86 "2009-01-29T22:45:27Z")
Oh, wait, according to Lostpedia, it’s actually [_Theresa_ Spencer](http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Theresa_Spencer). Well, there goes that. But I too thought she looked like Libby in the photo… ---
**Author:** ![Shoeless](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shoeless/32/7099_2.png) [@Shoeless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shoeless)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-3-jughead/483415/87 "2009-01-29T22:55:56Z")
> [@well\_he\_s\_back](#): > > and yeah, Sayid is definitely not an asshole. but he’s confusing at this point - why was working for Ben but then turning against him? Didn’t Sayid start working for Ben because he thought Widmore was involved in Sayid’s wife’s (can’t remember her name) murder? ---
**Author:** ![Arcite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/67e7ee/32.png) [@Arcite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arcite)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-3-jughead/483415/88 "2009-01-29T23:16:14Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Do we know when DHARMA gets started? When those Orientation videos were shot and when Dr. Marvin Candle gets those stations built? According to [Lostpedia](http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Swan_Orientation_film), the Swan Station orientation film, which we saw at the beginning of season 2, says that the DHARMA Initiative was founded in 1970. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-3-jughead/483415/89 "2009-01-30T00:17:34Z")
never mind ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-3-jughead/483415/90 "2009-01-30T00:19:26Z")
The compass made the leap too. I think if you are in possession of something, it comes with you. Did Sawyer or Juliet keep the guns? ---
**Author:** ![Pyper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Pyper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pyper)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-3-jughead/483415/91 "2009-01-30T01:45:25Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > He’s anti-DHARMA in the 80’s when he apparently recruits Ben and overthrows DHARMA, but what about in 1954? At that time it seems like there are only 2 power brokers on the island, the Army and Richard’s people (under Jacob?), and the uniforms that Richard’s people are wearing look like they are very DHARMA-esque with the name tags and stuff. No DHARMA logo yet, but maybe they are the ones that get DHARMA rolling. Maybe they are the ones that uncover many of the island’s powers when the bomb is introduced. > > Do we know when DHARMA gets started? When those Orientation videos were shot and when Dr. Marvin Candle gets those stations built? Richard’s people/The Others/The Hostiles are not the origin of Dharma, because they are frequently shown in flashbacks as attacking and eventually destroying the Dharma Initiative. It’s made clear in this episode that The Others have stolen the uniforms that they are wearing when Richard refers to the soldier with the nametag “Jones” as “Widmore,” and Richard explains that they have taken over the Army camp. ---
**Author:** ![rainy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c2a13f/32.png) [@rainy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rainy)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-3-jughead/483415/92 "2009-01-30T02:47:58Z")
> [@borschevsky](#): > > It sure could! As in: > > Desmond, Penny, & baby Charlie somehow end up on the island and jump back to 1935. Desmond & Penny get badly hurt. As they’re about to die, Richard comes across them. Penny says: I am Penny Widmore, this is my son Charlie, please take care of him. Des & Penny are Adam & Eve; baby Charlie is Charles Widmore and therefore is his own grandfather. Young Mr. Widmore did rather haughtily say “What you think he tracked me? You think he knows this island better than me?” (When Richard asked him how he escaped) That sure sounds like the bragging of someone who grew up on the island. Dang. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-3-jughead/483415/93 "2009-01-30T02:54:09Z")
Just a quibble on the names…I can see naming Charlie Hume after Charlie the Hobbit, but to have Charles Widmore and Charlotte as well? Too much similarity. Hey, I missed the bit from last week where Wickman/Candle’s real name was revealed. What was it? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-3-jughead/483415/94 "2009-01-30T03:15:16Z")
Frustratingly, here in Ontario, the episode cut off before it ended. We only saw it up to the point when Locke and Richard were sitting together; the last lines were Locke asking what year it was and Richard saying, “1954.” What happened after that? ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-3-jughead/483415/95 "2009-01-30T03:46:22Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > What happened after that? Check out [http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Jughead](http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Jughead) ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-3-jughead/483415/96 "2009-01-30T04:01:54Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > Just a quibble on the names…I can see naming Charlie Hume after Charlie the Hobbit, but to have Charles Widmore and Charlotte as well? Too much similarity. > Hey, I missed the bit from last week where Wickman/Candle’s real name was revealed. What was it? I think they called him “Dr Chang.” ---
**Author:** ![Pigs\_in\_Space](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9d8465/32.png) [@Pigs\_in\_Space](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pigs_in_Space)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-3-jughead/483415/97 "2009-01-30T06:19:19Z")
> [@borschevsky](#): > > It sure could! As in: > > Desmond, Penny, & baby Charlie somehow end up on the island and jump back to 1935. Desmond & Penny get badly hurt. As they’re about to die, Richard comes across them. Penny says: I am Penny Widmore, this is my son Charlie, please take care of him. Des & Penny are Adam & Eve; baby Charlie is Charles Widmore and therefore is his own grandfather. Wouldn’t that also mean he slept with his own grandmother? ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-3-jughead/483415/98 "2009-01-30T14:35:09Z")
> [@N9IWP](#): > > Any siginificance that Charlotte is a feminine form of “Charles”? > > Brian Hadn’t thought of that. I think it’s just part of the repetition that’s a running theme with the show. Also, her name is Charlotte Staples Lewis; they apparently wanted their cutesy name games to include a C.S. Lewis. Will there be a character named Heisenberg? That’s my guess; in fact, I can tell you either where you’ll first see him, or how fast he’ll be going, but not both. I’m trying to make sense of that damned bomb. Even if, in 1954, the US military wasn’t curious about the large island that didn’t appear on charts – they didn’t blow up islands like that. (Whatever else it is, the Island is a largish volcanic island, big enough to have mountains, creeks and a variety of terrain and plant and animal life.) They detonated bombs on coral atolls mostly in the Marshall Islands, not on large, lush beautiful islands. ---
**Author:** ![MTRG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71c47a/32.png) [@MTRG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MTRG)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-3-jughead/483415/99 "2009-01-30T14:44:51Z")
> [@Pyper](#): > > It’s made clear in this episode that The Others have stolen the uniforms that they are wearing when Richard refers to the soldier with the nametag “Jones” as “Widmore,” and Richard explains that they have taken over the Army camp. I had assumed that they had stolen the uniforms from the Army group. Also, is it not possible that some of the army guys were “recruited” (or found to be “good”) like a small number of tailies that were taken in by the others. If the Army guys had come with children (of course not likely due to the nature of their mission), I would also assume that the others would have kidnapped the children. ---
**Author:** ![MTRG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71c47a/32.png) [@MTRG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MTRG)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-3-jughead/483415/100 "2009-01-30T14:51:26Z")
> [@Pigs\_in\_Space](#): > > Wouldn’t that also mean he slept with his own grandmother? like Fry did in Futurama, **Roswell that ends well**. the parallels are amazing! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-3-jughead/483415.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-3-jughead/483415.md?page=6)