# Lost 5.7 "The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham"
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Created:** [February 25, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396 "2009-02-25T18:43:40Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 5
### Author:  [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)
#### Post date: [February 26, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/81 "2009-02-26T19:55:54Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#):
>
> Is For some reason I thought there was another year after this.
There is.
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### Author:  [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)
#### Post date: [February 26, 2009, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/82 "2009-02-26T19:57:18Z")
> [@Gfactor](#):
>
> There is.
Ah. OK then. That’s what I thought. :smack:
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### Author:  [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)
#### Post date: [February 26, 2009, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/83 "2009-02-26T20:04:32Z")
> [@fiddlesticks](#):
>
> I doubt we’re getting rid of Ben so easily. I’ve been looking for a screencap of one of the sheets of paper Caesar found in the lab…it had a line labeled “Spacetime” on it (I think). Anybody find a shot of this online yet?
[ ](https://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc144/PeterMorris/Misc/diagram.jpg)
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### Author:  [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)
#### Post date: [February 26, 2009, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/84 "2009-02-26T21:01:31Z")
That “spacetime” map is Faraday’s from an earlier episode, I think.
> [@Morbo](#):
>
> (Paraphrasing) Jack: “Has it occurred to you John that you’re suffering from delusions, just like on the Island?”
>
> My response: “You mean the disappearing island with the magic smoke monster and all those weird time shifting things and other whispering people and ghosts? YOU SAW ALL OF THIS TOO!! Oh, and **how do you think I got here???!!!** ” :smack:
Yeah, Jack’s behaviour once Locke shows up (in fact the whole “I wish you’d believed me” subplot) doesn’t make too much sense. I thought the whole point of the end of season 4 was that Jack realizes John was right. John told Jack they’d have to lie if they leave the island. When Jack sees the island disappear (as Locke had said, IIRC), he is convinced and decides to follow John’s advice about the O6 lie. Or am I misremembering the way that went?
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### Author:  [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)
#### Post date: [February 26, 2009, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/85 "2009-02-26T21:53:11Z")
> [@Monstre](#):
>
> It’s Waaaaaaaaalt! Looks like it’s been more than 3 years for him.
I love how whenever we see Walt someone always comments on how big he got.
Who is the sick fucking island now my main man?
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### Author:  [@tds1273](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tds1273)
#### Post date: [February 26, 2009, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/86 "2009-02-26T22:20:00Z")
A few episodes ago when the jumping began, the Losties/Freighties went to the beach camp and found two canoes, they took one to head around to the other side of the beach. That must have been in the future right?
So the new people(what is their nickname anyway?) must at some point in the future go to the main island which is where, and when, they will have one of the remaining two canoes stolen by Faraday and Sawyers crew? And Locke was with the Losties/Freighties when they stole the canoe too?
All we know about the canoes themselves is that they were just “there”, on Alcatraz, when 316 landed?
I guess the real question is, again, \*when \*are the new survivors? From what I can tell, Hugo, Jack, and Kate, time jumped back to the 70s(?) where Jin, Faraday, and presumably the rest are working for Dharma. Have we seen Sayid or Sun anytime since the second crash? The Hydra station looked pretty worn down. I didn’t see the magazine, was it aged or in new condition? Does that even matter at this point, what with all of the compasses floating around?
Frank and the woman-
I’m going to guess it was Claire, but I don’t think Frank as met her yet has he? I don’t think it was Sun, because there should be no reason why she, or Sayid ftm, should not have flashed off that plane. Ben and Locke? Okay, they’re “special” and also turned the wheel so they don’t have to flash. But why didn’t Frank flash off? He was just as involved with that flash as anyone else in the helicopter. I guess they must be connected by the hatch explosion, which would exclude Frank.
Sorry, I’m sure that’s pretty jumbled. Sort of stream of consciousness interrupted by “work breaks”.
ETA:
> [@msmith537](#):
>
> Who is the sick fucking island now my main man?
😃
Nice.
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### Author:  [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)
#### Post date: [February 26, 2009, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/87 "2009-02-26T22:25:45Z")
> [@borschevsky](#):
>
> That “spacetime” map is Faraday’s from an earlier episode, I think.
>
> Yeah, Jack’s behaviour once Locke shows up (in fact the whole “I wish you’d believed me” subplot) doesn’t make too much sense. I thought the whole point of the end of season 4 was that Jack realizes John was right. John told Jack they’d have to lie if they leave the island. When Jack sees the island disappear (as Locke had said, IIRC), he is convinced and decides to follow John’s advice about the O6 lie. Or am I misremembering the way that went?
IIRC, Jack’s line of reasoning for the O6 lying was not totally based upon Locke’s belief in mysticism; it was more practical. I recall Jack saying something to the effect that if someone is going to great lengths to hide the island and Oceanic 815 survivors by burying a fake plane in the ocean somewhere else, and the O6 show up telling the truth, thus exposing the lie underlying that fake plane, then the people that made the fake plane will certainly target the O6. Therefore, we should lie.
However, if I saw my dead father and saw an entire island disappear before my own eyes, I wouldn’t be so quick to trash Locke as Jack seems to be.
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### Author:  [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)
#### Post date: [February 26, 2009, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/88 "2009-02-26T22:31:05Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#):
>
> Is this the final season that we are in the middle of now? For some reason I thought there was another year after this.
:smack:
Well, the 14 episode seasons go by so fast it seems like its the last season!
> [@Bearflag70](#):
>
> However, if I saw my dead father and saw an entire island disappear before my own eyes, I wouldn’t be so quick to trash Locke as Jack seems to be.
Me either. Jack, though, is a particularly obstinate fellow. It’s not unbelievable that he would act like this. I know a handful of people who, in his situation, would. And a lot of particularly scientifically minded people on this board would too!
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### Author:  [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)
#### Post date: [February 26, 2009, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/89 "2009-02-26T22:43:26Z")
> [@cmyk](#):
>
> so, didn’t they embalm Locke’s body? Isn’t that standard procedure?
Maybe. In any case Locke’s been dead for several days. I don’t think that embalming him would present a much bigger obstacle to the island resurrecting him than his corpse rotting for several days.
> [@Mehitabel](#):
>
> Well, I’m a little more upset about Abaddon, since I knew Locke would be back. Has anyone touched him, is he physically there? If he has any gnarly powers now he doesn’t know about them, but his leg and his scraped face are totally healed. Of course, that could be the Island.
He was eating fruit and leaving clothing everywhere.
> [@Rich\_Mann](#):
>
> Although it really did look like the murder was in response to his knowing the name ‘Eloise Hawking’, I’m wondering if maybe Ben killed John mostly because of Sun.
I was thinking this too. He may have realized that John couldn’t get Sun back because of his promise. On the other hand, Ben may have been fishing for Locke’s method of getting back to the island and when he mentioned Hawking Ben realized he now had a way to get back himself.
> [@PigBoy](#):
>
> Another mystery this week: why did Lapidus and “some woman” apparently run off with the 316 passenger list in the middle of the night, and who is the woman? I’m not coming up with any good theories on this.
I think that was Sun, and they went to the island to look for the other Losties (since they crashed on Hydra island).
> [@well\_he\_s\_back](#):
>
> Anyway, if Locke’s mission was so important to Widmore, why didn’t Widmore get back in touch with him once Abbadon was killed and it was obvious Locke was failing? You mean rich, powerful (evil) Widmore wasn’t watching him? Don’t buy that.
He gave Locke a phone with his number on speed dial…
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> Oh, no, not more chracters.
Heh. They just killed off most of the Lostie sock puppets in the fire arrow attack, and now we have a whole fresh plane full of redshirts. On the other hand, though they do have some rafts, they are for now secluded on the other island. I do like the two new characters though.
> [@Meltdown](#):
>
> did anyone recognize the room? If not, any theories on where they were? Some random Dharma office?
> [@randwill](#):
>
> I thought I caught a glimpse of a full page photo of the Creature From the Black Lagoon as he quickly flipped the pages of the “Life” magazine.
> [@fiddlesticks](#):
>
> I’ve been looking for a screencap of one of the sheets of paper Caesar found in the lab…it had a line labeled “Spacetime” on it (I think). Anybody find a shot of this online yet?
It was an office in the Hydra station. We hadn’t seen the particular office before, but we almost did - it was the set of a deleted scene on the season 3 DVD between Alex and Ben. But even though we needn’t have recognized the particular room, there were Hydra station logos on the folder Cesar was going through, which contained:
- The April 19 1954 issue of Life with a feature about the H-Bomb (clearly a reference to Jughead), and a photo from the Black Lagoon of the beast carrying the same actress that plays the Other “Amelia” in “Tale of Two Cities” and “The Envelope”
- Photocopies of some of Daniel’s notes, especially the circles and lines one and the one with settings for his machine
- Daniel and Charlotte’s map to the Tempest
- Danielle’s island map
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### Author:  [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)
#### Post date: [February 26, 2009, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/90 "2009-02-26T22:45:39Z")
> [@Bootis](#):
>
> :smack:
>
> Me either. Jack, though, is a particularly obstinate fellow. It’s not unbelievable that he would act like this. I know a handful of people who, in his situation, would. And a lot of particularly scientifically minded people on this board would too!
Out of curiosity, is there a laundry list of unusual things Jack has witnessed that he has to write off or rationalize to discredit Locke’s view of the island (e.g., disappearing island, visions of dead dad, unusual healing of wounds, smoke monster, polar bears etc.)?
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_Q](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Q)
#### Post date: [February 26, 2009, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/91 "2009-02-26T22:50:02Z")
Couple things:
1. Abbadon seemed to think that Walt was on the list of people who had to go back. What will his absence from the island do to the Big Picture that the exodus screwed up so badly?
2. Ben has now killed Locke twice. How soon before our Man of Faith is once again taking advice from him, despite the evidence of his own senses and the annoyed derision of the Island’s Powers that be?
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [February 26, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/92 "2009-02-26T22:52:52Z")
> [@Bearflag70](#):
>
> Out of curiosity, is there a laundry list of unusual things Jack has witnessed that he has to write off or rationalize to discredit Locke’s view of the island (e.g., disappearing island, visions of dead dad, unusual healing of wounds, smoke monster, polar bears etc.)?
There was a “zoo” with cages for the polar bears, so that’s not too hard to rationalize, eh?
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### Author:  [@mshar253](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mshar253)
#### Post date: [February 26, 2009, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/93 "2009-02-26T23:17:02Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#):
>
> - The April 19 1954 issue of Life with a feature about the H-Bomb (clearly a reference to Jughead), and a photo from the Black Lagoon of the beast carrying the same actress that plays the Other “Amelia” in “Tale of Two Cities” and “The Envelope”
>
> - Photocopies of some of Daniel’s notes, especially the circles and lines one and the one with settings for his machine
>
> - Daniel and Charlotte’s map to the Tempest
>
> - Danielle’s island map
Here’s a [link](http://www.getlostpodcastmedia.com/2009/02/26/lost-episode-5x07-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham-screencaps-easter-eggs-and-more/) with some of these pictures.
A question, though: on the page to which I’ve just linked, look toward the bottom, where there are a lot of pictures. The first picture on the left of the second row must be what **jackdavinci** is referring to when he says “a photo from the Black Lagoon of the beast carrying around Amelia.” But:
- What’s the Black Lagoon?
- Who’s “the beast?” Have we seen a beast, besides the smoke monster?
- How can you tell that’s Amelia?
Or are you talking about a different picture? And if you _are_ talking about a different picture, what the hell is that thing?
EDIT: And then, after having posted that, it occurred to me to do a google search for “Black Lagoon,” and now I understand all. My mistake.
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### Author:  [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/94 "2009-02-27T00:36:32Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> There was a “zoo” with cages for the polar bears, so that’s not too hard to rationalize, eh?
OK, scratch the bears
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### Author:  [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/95 "2009-02-27T00:45:21Z")
> [@Bearflag70](#):
>
> Out of curiosity, is there a laundry list of unusual things Jack has witnessed that he has to write off or rationalize to discredit Locke’s view of the island (e.g., disappearing island, visions of dead dad, unusual healing of wounds, smoke monster, polar bears etc.)?
I think Jack repressed most of his memories of all the crazy stuff that went down on the island. He starts to go all crazy beardface after seeing his Dad again, making him realize that it all really happened.
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### Author:  [@Rich\_Mann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rich_Mann)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/96 "2009-02-27T01:04:46Z")
Regarding Jack’s attitude towards Locke’s ‘delusions’:
He was only talking about Locke’s belief that he is somehow special or important. He never mentioned, much less denied, any of their bizarre experiences on the Island.
[QUOTE=Jack Shephard]
Have you ever stopped to think that these delusions that you’re special aren’t real? That maybe there’s nothing important about you at all? Maybe you are just a lonely old man that crashed on an island? That’s it. Goodbye, John.
[/QUOTE]
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### Author:  [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/97 "2009-02-27T02:07:26Z")
> [@](#):
>
> WIDMORE: They’re not the “Others” to me. They’re my people. We protected the island peacefully for more than three decades.
[http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/The\_Life\_and\_Death\_of\_Jeremy\_Bentham\_transcript](http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/The_Life_and_Death_of_Jeremy_Bentham_transcript)
:eek:
I guess I’m not clear on when he’s stopping and starting, but I assume Alpert’s been there longer than that. 😕
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### Author:  [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/98 "2009-02-27T02:13:48Z")
> [@cmyk](#):
>
> So why in God’s green earth did the revelation that Locke knew about Eloise all the sudden change Ben’s tune about saving Locke? I can’t think of a scenario where this would make any difference.
My own take, somewhat similar but not quite identical to a few above, is not just that Ben wanted information in the moment. Rather he wanted Locke to continue to work towards bringing the Oceanic Six together and convincing them to go. _Then_ he could safely jettison Locke one way or another to return to the island to reassume his leadership. But the knowledge that Locke actually knew Hawking’s name and could thereby find a way there without him, suddenly made Locke to big of a risk, whatever other use he may have been. Locke is a potential rival for influence and Ben can’t tolerate the possibility of being demoted to “maintenance guy” ever again ;). Probably he figured - “Sure the island healed him when he was shot, but let’s see it try to resurrect his ass a week or two after he kicked off.” Jacob sure showed him :D.
Also the island didn’t teleport him off the plane either. Just let him crash with the plebians. A clear rejection?
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### Author:  [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/99 "2009-02-27T03:13:13Z")
Couple of micro-spoilers from the podcast:
The producers confirm that the Ajira flight landed on Hydra island and suggest that the Jack-Hurley-Kate are in a different time from the Ben and Locke.
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### Author:  [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/100 "2009-02-27T03:20:26Z")
Also:
Kate did not kill Aaron–not like most of us thought that–but we will find out what happened to Aaron in Episode 11: What Happened, Happened.
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