# Lost 5.7 "The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham"
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Created:** [February 25, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396 "2009-02-25T18:43:40Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 6
### Author:  [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/101 "2009-02-27T04:54:43Z")
> [@Bearflag70](#):
>
> OK, scratch the bears
They’d probably like that. I think their backs get itchy. Sometimes you can see them rubbing their backs against a tree. Bet that feels good.
For some reason it didn’t occur to me that they were on “Alcatraz”. Now it makes sense that Locke was looking so intently at the “other island” – it was really the Island.
So, are they actually in the 1950s? When did Dharma first come to the Island?
ETA: It was funny that somebody (Charles Widmore) within the show finally commented on the character names. When he gave John Locke the fake ID with the name Jeremy Bentham, he said something like, “Your parents had fun with your name, so why shouldn’t I?”
How could anybody possibly, for a moment, trust either Benjamin or Widmore? We don’t know whether Widmore lies as much as Ben, but we do know they’re both utterly ruthless when pursuing their agendas – and they always have an agenda.
---
### Author:  [@Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oslo_Ostragoth)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/102 "2009-02-27T07:21:28Z")
> [@Gfactor](#):
>
> Also:
>
> Kate did not kill Aaron–not like most of us thought that–but we will find out what happened to Aaron in Episode 11: What Happened, Happened.
Who thought that? I certainly didn’t.
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### Author:  [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/103 "2009-02-27T07:31:52Z")
> [@Oslo\_Ostragoth](#):
>
> Who thought that? I certainly didn’t.
Nor I. But in case someone was. . .
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### Author:  [@Batboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batboy)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/104 "2009-02-27T11:29:38Z")
> [@Meltdown](#):
>
> Three Kings Man finds a gun (you think we’ll see that again before the end of the season 😉 )
I think we may already have seen it in action, shooting a hole in one of the canoe paddle thingies maybe…
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### Author:  [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/105 "2009-02-27T13:39:17Z")
It seems like John is so desperate for his life to have meaning, that he’ll go along with whoever has most recently offered a path. Ben, then Richard, then Christian, then Widmore, then Ben again . . . .
Reminds me – did we ever find out the end to that flashback of when he was part of a pot-growing commune? Did he murder the undercover narcotics officer, or didn’t he?
In any case, he’s killed on the Island. So far we’ve seen these “good guy” cast members take a life (in some cases, several lives):
Kate
Sawyer
Charlie
Sayid
John Locke
Ana Lucia
And I’m probably forgetting some. Sometimes entirely justifiable self-defense, sometimes cold-blooded murder. Guilt, suffering and (maybe) redemption are big themes on the show. (Thanks, Captain Obvious!)
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### Author:  [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/106 "2009-02-27T14:52:42Z")
> [@Bootis](#):
>
> Sitnam, there’s not really much show left. Even if for whatever reason you think these last episodes are worse than others, quitting on the show after 4 and a half seasons now? Even if I hated this season, I’d still stick around for the little bit left just to get the answers.
I know, but it just feels like it’s becoming a turd circling the drain. The more the plot twists look like _Days of our Lives_ the more I’m convinced the end episode will ultimately be unsatisfying and I will have wasted another year and a half.
I can get the answers from you when it’s all over. 🙂
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### Author:  [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/107 "2009-02-27T15:29:54Z")
> [@](#):
>
> So far we’ve seen these “good guy” cast members take a life (in some cases, several lives):
>
> Kate
> Sawyer
> Charlie
> Sayid
> John Locke
> Ana Lucia
>
> And I’m probably forgetting some.
Michael killed Ana-Lucia and Libby.
Desmond killed Kelvin.
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### Author:  [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/108 "2009-02-27T15:36:17Z")
> [@cmkeller](#):
>
> Michael killed Ana-Lucia and Libby.
> Desmond killed Kelvin.
Kelvin was self-defense very literally. Michael died miserable - but nearly as miserable enough, IMO.
-Joe
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### Author:  [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/109 "2009-02-27T15:41:49Z")
> [@Merijeek](#):
>
> Kelvin was self-defense very literally. Michael died miserable - but nearly as miserable enough, IMO.
>
> -Joe
I thought Des attacked Kelvin when after he caught him repairing the boat?
> [@](#):
>
> As he continues following Kelvin, eventually they arrive at a cove. There, Des sees his sailboat, good as new, at which point Kelvin announces he was aware of Desmond’s presence, as he was a spook for 10 years. Desmond confronts Kelvin and becomes increasingly emotional, while Kelvin resignedly admits he had been going outside to repair Desmond’s boat to leave the Island: “Screw the button, man. Who knows if it’s even real.” Believing he could have left the Island long ago, Desmond becomes enraged and throws himself at Kelvin, accidentally smashing his head against a rock and (likely) killing him.
[http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Live\_Together%2C\_Die\_Alone](http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Live_Together%2C_Die_Alone)
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### Author:  [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/110 "2009-02-27T16:52:41Z")
> [@Gfactor](#):
>
> I thought Des attacked Kelvin when after he caught him repairing the boat?
>
> [http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Live\_Together%2C\_Die\_Alone](http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Live_Together%2C_Die_Alone)
So, you’re saying I might have been wrong?
[flashback noise]
Gfactor: You’re wrong.
Me: Oh.
[flashback noise]
Oh.
Wait, no, this is Lost we’re talking about.
[flashback noise]
Gfactor: You’re wrong.
Me: No! Impossible! You suck! I’ll never believe you!
Gfactor: You have to believe me.
Me: Why?
Gfactor: It’s complicated.
Me: Oh, that makes perfect sense, then. I’ll climb into this refrigerator now. You promise you’ll let me out, right?
[flashback noise]
-Joe
---
### Author:  [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/111 "2009-02-27T17:25:34Z")
> [@Baldwin](#):
>
> How could anybody possibly, for a moment, trust either Benjamin or Widmore? We don’t know whether Widmore lies as much as Ben, but we do know they’re both utterly ruthless when pursuing their agendas – and they always have an agenda.
We also know that there is no chance either one of them turn out to be “good”. They both have shown themselves to be irredeemably bad people, Widmore especially in my mind, after his disgusting little speech to Desmond long ago about how worthless a human he is.
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### Author:  [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/112 "2009-02-27T17:36:23Z")
It would be interesting to know how Ben tricked Widmore into moving the island.
“Hey, Charles, if you turn this little wheel here, it spits out free pie!”
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/113 "2009-02-27T17:43:01Z")
> [@Baldwin](#):
>
> In any case, he’s killed on the Island. So far we’ve seen these “good guy” cast members take a life (in some cases, several lives):
>
> Kate
> Sawyer
> Charlie
> Sayid
> John Locke
> Ana Lucia
I made the same point here, but I’ll point out that Kate & Sawyers are criminals and Sayid was a part of Saddams Republican Guard. Hardly “good guys”.
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### Author:  [@mshar253](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mshar253)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/114 "2009-02-27T18:39:49Z")
> [@Bootis](#):
>
> We also know that there is no chance either one of them turn out to be “good”. They both have shown themselves to be irredeemably bad people, Widmore especially in my mind, after his disgusting little speech to Desmond long ago about how worthless a human he is.
I don’t think that Widmore’s disapproval of his daughter’s choice in men alone makes him “irredeemably bad,” regardless of how Desmond has shown that he is a pretty good guy. Now, if Widmore truly did plot to have Desmond stranded on the island, that might better prove your point toward how bad he is.
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### Author:  [@Trion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trion)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/115 "2009-02-27T18:42:16Z")
> [@Bearflag70](#):
>
> It would be interesting to know how Ben tricked Widmore into moving the island.
>
> “Hey, Charles, if you turn this little wheel here, it spits out free pie!”
So if you ever see anyone wandering around Tunisia saying “Where’s my f\*\*\*ing pie?”, you’ll know what happened.
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### Author:  [@wasson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wasson)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/116 "2009-02-27T18:56:48Z")
While on the subject of Losties who have killed other people…
Jack killed the US Marshall (although I’m not sure if this counts as murder).
Juliet killed Danny.
Hurley ran over the dude in the van (and kind of killed Nikki and Paulo).
Have Jin or Sun killed anyone?
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### Author:  [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/117 "2009-02-27T18:59:50Z")
> [@wasson](#):
>
> While on the subject of Losties who have killed other people…
>
> Jack killed the US Marshall (although I’m not sure if this counts as murder).
> Juliet killed Danny.
> Hurley ran over the dude in the van (and kind of killed Nikki and Paulo).
>
> Have Jin or Sun killed anyone?
Sun shot that Other chick on the boat back in… season 2? Sorry, my details are vague on this one. The actress playing the Other was Trixie in Deadwood, though.
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### Author:  [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/118 "2009-02-27T19:00:14Z")
> [@mshar253](#):
>
> I don’t think that Widmore’s disapproval of his daughter’s choice in men alone makes him “irredeemably bad,” regardless of how Desmond has shown that he is a pretty good guy. Now, if Widmore truly did plot to have Desmond stranded on the island, that might better prove your point toward how bad he is.
Yeah, you’re right. I guess what I meant by putting good in quotes was that neither can turn into people we are supposed to _like_ in the end, unless they have a demonstrable “I’m changing my ways” kind of moment.
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### Author:  [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/119 "2009-02-27T19:12:50Z")
> [@Merijeek](#):
>
> So, you’re saying I might have been wrong?
Or I misunderstood.
---
### Author:  [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/120 "2009-02-27T19:37:57Z")
This most recent episode throws another curveball into our perception of who’s right and wrong re: the island. While we know Ben is a liar, we seemed to have decent evidence last season that Widmore is worse than Ben. Ben’s reaction to the fact that Locke was sent to Eloise Hawking by Jacob/Christian seems to imply (building on something we’ve seen since late season 3) that Ben is trying to take control of the island against the actual rightful authority over the Others.
This is really super-cool. I don’t know the ending of course, but we really can see things coalescing into a coherent picture.
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