# Lost 5.7 "The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham"
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Created:** [February 25, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396 "2009-02-25T18:43:40Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 7
### Author:  [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/121 "2009-02-27T19:59:52Z")
> [@cmkeller](#):
>
> This is really super-cool. I don’t know the ending of course, but we really can see things coalescing into a coherent picture.
Yes. They really are doling out answers now.
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### Author:  [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/122 "2009-02-27T20:35:15Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#):
>
> Sun shot that Other chick on the boat back in… season 2? Sorry, my details are vague on this one. The actress playing the Other was Trixie in Deadwood, though.
A list of who has killed whom is [here](http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Murder) - scroll down to “main cast kill count”.
Sun has indeed killed an Other woman.
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### Author:  [@MTRG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MTRG)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/123 "2009-02-27T21:13:35Z")
OK, weird question…but this is Lost we’re talking about.
How many times has Ben killed Locke? How many times has he really tried?
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### Author:  [@Rich\_Mann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rich_Mann)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/124 "2009-02-27T21:25:35Z")
That kill count has Ben at five. What about the _entire f\*\*king Dharma Initiative_?!
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### Author:  [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/125 "2009-02-27T21:39:38Z")
> [@Rich\_Mann](#):
>
> That kill count has Ben at five. What about the _entire f\*\*king Dharma Initiative_?!
He may have helped turn off the Shield Wall, but he was in the woods when they got wiped out. That was Richard who killed them.
-Joe
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### Author:  [@Offkenter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Offkenter)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2009, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/126 "2009-02-27T23:13:27Z")
> [@Trion](#):
>
> So if you ever see anyone wandering around Tunisia saying “Where’s my f\*\*\*ing pie?”, you’ll know what happened.
When come back, bring everyone who went looking for pie.
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### Author:  [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)
#### Post date: [February 28, 2009, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/127 "2009-02-28T00:39:58Z")
Richard may have actually killed most of the Dharmites, but only with Ben’s help, and Ben killed his own father (!) [crummy tho he was] all by himself.
I still think Widmore’s probably just as evil…He sent Keamy the daughter-killer and freighter blower upper, after all.
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### Author:  [@Rich\_Mann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rich_Mann)
#### Post date: [February 28, 2009, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/128 "2009-02-28T04:14:03Z")
> [@well\_he\_s\_back](#):
>
> Richard may have actually killed most of the Dharmites, but only with Ben’s help, and Ben killed his own father (!) [crummy tho he was] all by himself.
> I still think Widmore’s probably just as evil…He sent Keamy the daughter-killer and freighter blower upper, after all.
Any member of a conspiracy to commit murder is equally responsible. Ben is both morally and (under most bodies of law) legally responsible for the deaths of the Dharmites. If you consider it an act of war…well he would get the same medals as the rest of his unit, so he is still responsible.
As for Widmore; young Widmore (1954) was going to cut off Juliet’s hand just to motivate Sawyer to answer some questions that (for all he knew) Sawyer might have been perfectly willing to answer without any coercion at all. That’s evil enough for me!
It’s still a toss-up as to who’s the worst, or if either of them is at all justified. Which is, I’m sure, what the writers intended.
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### Author:  [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)
#### Post date: [February 28, 2009, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/129 "2009-02-28T09:19:42Z")
> [@borschevsky](#):
>
> > [@Peter\_Morris](#):
> >
> > [http://tinyurl.com/clvp2y](http://tinyurl.com/clvp2y)
>
> That “spacetime” map is Faraday’s from an earlier episode, I think.
Or Picasso’s painting of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
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### Author:  [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)
#### Post date: [February 28, 2009, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/130 "2009-02-28T13:56:33Z")
Easily the worst episode this season, a major disappointment. Did very little to advance things and it all seemed like a setup merely to remind the viewers that Ben is a Very Bad Guy.
Also, not at all thrilled to know that there are more survivors who we have to track.
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### Author:  [@TooSchoolforCool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TooSchoolforCool)
#### Post date: [February 28, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/131 "2009-02-28T17:04:23Z")
Oh I disagree. It was precisely the sort of character development that makes sense in terms of Locke. We saw despondent, failing Locke basically replaying his worst feelings about himself: that he is called to something great, but is a failure. And then the new Locke on the Island is astonished and feels reborn: he really MUST have some purpose if he’s been brought back to life.
Took me a long while to figure out that the plane had landed at the Hydra runway that was built in Season 3. I’m assuming that Jason forsaw the need for it and that’s why he made the Others build it. What a mindfuck!
Remember that killing Dharma was not Ben’s call per se (though he certainly seemed to cry no tears over it, no doubt because of what eventually happened to his sweetie). And we don’t know yet why it was important. For all we know, Dharma had some incredibly evil agenda. We’ll hopefuly find out in the upcoming Namaste ep.
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### Author:  [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)
#### Post date: [February 28, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/132 "2009-02-28T17:49:32Z")
> [@TooSchoolforCool](#):
>
> Took me a long while to figure out that the plane had landed at the Hydra runway that was built in Season 3. I’m assuming that Jason forsaw the need for it and that’s why he made the Others build it. What a mindfuck!
I don’t think it did. It looked like the plane landed on the beach. The runway (did they ever say for sure what they were building) was away from the beach on the other side of the island, so no one would know they weren’t on the main island.
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### Author:  [@TooSchoolforCool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TooSchoolforCool)
#### Post date: [February 28, 2009, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/133 "2009-02-28T23:24:30Z")
Watching it again, the plane definately is near SOME sort of paved/cleared surface,and as far as I can tell, its in the woods: not clear how close to the beach it is: they pass it on the way to the beach. Maybe its a road, and maybe it’s not in the right place to be the runway. But I guess that, either way, it needs to be clear for the aliens, right?
Oh, and at least in light of this deleted scene (from Season 3), it appears the place Caesar was searching (and where he found the shotgun) was once Ben’s Hydra office.
[ ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ER_oRayvuYI)
Maybe more reason to think that he has a connection to Widmore? If he’s a Widmore goon, I’d have been far happier if they had used the super creepy Abaddon in this capacity (very unhappy they killed him off in such a lame way). But I suppose that would have been a mega-tipoff for Ben and Hurley though.
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### Author:  [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2009, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/134 "2009-03-01T00:16:48Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#):
>
> Also the island didn’t teleport him off the plane either. Just let him crash with the plebians. A clear rejection?
He’s in the same place as Locke. It’s not clear why certain people are flashing and others aren’t. There doesn’t seem to be a consistent rhyme or reason. Looks like Sun and maybe Sayid didn’t flash either. Since Locke didn’t flash, I don’t think it necessarily says something bad about those who didn’t.
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### Author:  [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2009, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/135 "2009-03-01T00:37:34Z")
Was it explained why Kate changed or Hurley changed their minds about going back?
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### Author:  [@TooSchoolforCool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TooSchoolforCool)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2009, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/136 "2009-03-01T00:50:23Z")
Nope.
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### Author:  [@TooSchoolforCool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TooSchoolforCool)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2009, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/137 "2009-03-01T00:56:57Z")
It’s also not entirely clear now what Ben meant about how moving the island makes it impossible to return to it.
First of all, we know the Others once used the sub to move to and fro, and that folks like Mr. Happy and Ben seemed to move on and off fairly freely. So it’s hard to understand how moving it could bar you from returning if such an easy means of travel is possible to those “in the know.”
But the way Ben said it before almost implied that the Island wouldn’t EVER let you come back, period. And yet now he’s back (hurt, but apparently alive), and so is Locke, and apparently Widmore thinks the island can be his again, even though he apparently was (tricked?) into moving it once before.
Maybe what Ben meant is that moving the island moves it in time, meaning that, at least in his mind, it just won’t be anywhere you can ever possibly find it again in practice. And then LATER, after leaving, he learns that people (like Eloise) do know how to find it again after all. But as we learn from Locke, it’s not entirely clear that the time skipping really IS a necessary part of the move: it could simply be because Ben screwed it up by knocking the wheel incompletely off its axis.
Ugh.
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### Author:  [@Sir\_Dirx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Dirx)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2009, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/138 "2009-03-01T05:53:32Z")
Or, he could have been lying. Like he always does. I don’t try to reconcile anything he says, anymore.
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### Author:  [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2009, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/139 "2009-03-01T06:17:09Z")
I don’t think he was lying. We now know that Widmore did turn the wheel, and has now been spending the last 20 years trying to get back. So it’s not impossible, just really really hard. I’m pretty sure when Ben left, he really didn’t think he would ever come back. Remember the look on his face when he was pushing the wheel?
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### Author:  [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2009, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-5-7-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/487396/140 "2009-03-01T07:48:13Z")
I can buy that. That when Ben said he couldn’t return if he used the wheel, it wasn’t some mystical prevention, but a practical one, because once you move it in space-time, it becomes nigh impossible to relocate again.
Which would also explain why Ben killed Locke after talking him out of suicide, once Locke mentioned Eloise’s name. At that time, Ben couldn’t conceive of a way to get back by himself. But, perhaps once he mentioned Eloise, it occurred to Ben that Locke could stand as a proxy for Christian. Only Ben didn’t know Locke would resurrect. Just a thought?
As far as who’s flashing through time and why, I think all the original passengers of Flight 815 are flashing, along with those that were on the island at the time of the first move. When Flight 316 flew over the field, Jack, Kate, Sayid, Hurley, and Sun were beamed to the island in the 70s, now in sync with the rest of the gang. I think that Sayid and Sun just ended up somewhere slightly removed from the others. Remember, Jack awoke in the jungle, and had to run some ways to find Hurley and Kate in the lagoon.
[ETA: It seems that they landed on the island displaced in respect to their seats on the plane. Jack was in the back. Kate and Hurley were in the middle, and Sayid and Sun were up front, if I’m remembering correctly.]
I think Locke stayed with Ben and the other 316 passengers in 2008, because Locke was dead, until he arrived on the island. Perhaps the flashing doesn’t work on the dead?
I’m also thinking that Lapedis maybe ran off with the flight attendant. Or maybe the chick who had Sayid in custody. Or was she already one of the 316ers, the one who gave Locke the mango?
Speaking of, mango is _messy._ Give him some napkins or something.
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