# LOST 6.16 "What They Died For" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 18, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915 "2010-05-18T17:30:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/181 "2010-05-21T20:44:26Z")
I’d tell them that if they’re planning to watch 4 more seasons of episodes in order to get answers to the mysteries, then they will probably be disappointed, and if they’re watching because they find Lost episodes entertaining, then they probably won’t be. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/182 "2010-05-21T21:36:19Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Really? So you don’t think that scene could’ve been handled better? > > We spent 6 years finding out about how these people were somehow special to the island, that they all had their unique backstories, that they were there for a reason. More recently we learned that for some reason, a particular group of them were candidates to do something very important, but we didn’t know why or how they’d be chosen. > > So this scene should be important. We should learn a lot about the fundamental basis of the series. But do they indicate why each person was a candidate and chosen for the job? Did they ask questions to find out what the responsibilities entailed so that the person chosen (out of the remaining 4) could make an informed decision? > > We had 6 years of “you’re special, the island picked you for a reason” turned into “Hey, who wants this job? First person to say yes!” “Uh, me I guess” “You got it!” > > Yeah, I’m definitely baseless in criticizing the writers for wrapping up one of the fundamental aspects of the stories in this manner. I’m not going to get baited into an argument with you about this, because 1) it would be based purely on opinion, and who am I to judge your opinion, and vice-versa; and 2) you are clearly way more…I will say “invested” than I am. But I will say this: At no point did I say that the scene couldn’t have been handled better. And the show is not over, so it’s quite possible we will learn more about the stuff you are angry about not learning enough about. I am content to wait and see what happens before I start bitching about it (which I might, if I am disappointed). ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/183 "2010-05-21T22:06:55Z")
I agree, with **Beef**. I know the writers are saving secrets for the end, and there’s a reason not to let us, (the audience), in on a big secrets. But all of them, immediately after watching their friends die, going through trauma that would equate to… surviving a plain crash, being in several bloody battles, multiple wounds and knocks on the head, and encountering weird smoke monsters on and Island that moves in time; You just think it’d be a GRAND opportunity to ask one of the ones who helped pull the strings more about the point of it all… and what’s in it for them? There’s no reason any of them should have been so passive when Jacob, (lamely), challenged that their lives may not have been much better without the island. I would have said, “I guess I’m never freaking know!” ---
**Author:** ![BrianJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/54ee81/32.png) [@BrianJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrianJ)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/184 "2010-05-21T23:15:17Z")
> [@MyFootsZZZ](#): > > Oh, this show has a history of characters not saying; “What?” or, “Can you tell me why?”. I’m not going to search season one to find an example. > > This is something people, even under this physiological trauma, would not just say; ‘EXPLAIN THIS TO ME!’ to. > > This time it particularly bothered me [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/GcatQSyRK6c/hqdefault.jpg "Previously on Lost : What?") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcatQSyRK6c) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BrianJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/54ee81/32.png) [@BrianJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrianJ)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/185 "2010-05-21T23:22:11Z")
What I’d like to know is why the Others were so ostile to the 815 survivors at the beginning. I mean, there they have a plane load of candidates for the most important job on the Island and they are attacked and harassed for no apparent reason. Why not just walk up and say welcome to the island, some of you are important and must come with us, the rest can hang out in the temple with the other peons… or something. 😛 Instead, peple who have no apparent use to jacob are kidnapped forcibly while the other survivors are shot, harassed, etc and left to wander and potentially get killed by the smoke monster. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/186 "2010-05-21T23:44:10Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > I don’t know why people think its so inexplicable that Ben and Widmore couldn’t kill each other. > > The Others are not allowed to kill each other. Both Ben and Widmore want to go back and become King Other again. They can’t do that if they break the rules. But after the Others are pretty much wiped clean off the face of the earth (well, except for stewardess lady and the kids I suppose, and that weird smiling black dude extra) and Jacob got his ass killed, it ceased to matter anymore. The rules died with the rulemaker… at least until someone else takes over and makes new rules. There may be more too it than that, but I don’t see why there has to be. There may ALSO be RULES as in rules of reality that Jacob sets that really are mystical preventions. But in this case, in Ben v Widmore, we may just be talking about rules that are more like laws. They’ve left that part ambiguous. But there’s more than enough pieces in place, in that case, that I don’t feel like they cheated, even if they never explain further. Yeah, remember all that stuff with the sheriff, and branding Juliet and all that? Probably have some “Other shall never kill Other” rule, and if you violate it you get branded and have consequences and whatnot. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/187 "2010-05-22T02:25:42Z")
> [@BrianJ4](#): > > What I’d like to know is why the Others were so ostile to the 815 survivors at the beginning. I mean, there they have a plane load of candidates for the most important job on the Island and they are attacked and harassed for no apparent reason. > > Why not just walk up and say welcome to the island, some of you are important and must come with us, the rest can hang out in the temple with the other peons.. or something. 😛 > > Instead, peple who have no apparent use to jacob are kidnapped forcibly while the other survivors are shot, harassed, etc and left to wander and potentially get killed by the smoke monster. Remember though that the relationship between the Others and Jacob is far more tenuous than him as king and they are servants. Jacob lets Richard start the Others to give people a fighting chance against MiB, but he never says he’ll direct or push them to do this or that: in fact, he’s against that idea. So a lot of what they do and think is based on tradition and superstition and whatnot. For Jacob, the issue is letting fate work its way rather than directing it. He pushes and sees what shakes out. And that’s the conflict: the MiB sees this as destroying free will. Jacob sees it as giving people a chance to exercise their free will… ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/188 "2010-05-22T03:18:33Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > Remember though that the relationship between the Others and Jacob is far more tenuous than him as king and they are servants. We know that for the past thirty years or more (under Ben and under Widmore) even the Others’ leader never got to see Jacob. Jacob handed terse (and knowing him, probably ambiguous) notes to Richard, and Richard passed it to the leader, but at no point was Jacob explicitly ordering them to do this or that. It seems that for Jacob, the whole _point_ was to leave them alone and see what they’d do, with just a helpful nudge once in a while when it looks like things were getting out of balance. And furthermore, it’s clear that Ben and probably Widmore were willing to lie in Jacob’s name, and with Richard standing by and not saying boo. ETA: And even if the idea of Jacob and the “candidates” had been developed by the time of say, around season 3, I’m not sure that Ben and the Others would necessarily have been told about Jack, Kate, Hurley et. al. were special in some way, at least not at first. Ben, self-centered as he was, only interepreted Oceanic 815 as part of his “magic box” giving him just what he happened to need at that point – a spinal surgeon falling out of the sky. ---
**Author:** ![Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a9a28c/32.png) [@Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oslo_Ostragoth)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/189 "2010-05-22T03:44:01Z")
> [@BrianJ4](#): > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcatQSyRK6c](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcatQSyRK6c) > > 🙂 That’s hilarious. ---
**Author:** ![BrianJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/54ee81/32.png) [@BrianJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrianJ)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/190 "2010-05-22T13:14:34Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > We know that for the past thirty years or more (under Ben and under Widmore) even the Others’ leader never got to see Jacob. Jacob handed terse (and knowing him, probably ambiguous) notes to Richard, and Richard passed it to the leader, but at no point was Jacob explicitly ordering them to do this or that. It seems that for Jacob, the whole _point_ was to leave them alone and see what they’d do, with just a helpful nudge once in a while when it looks like things were getting out of balance. And furthermore, it’s clear that Ben and probably Widmore were willing to lie in Jacob’s name, and with Richard standing by and not saying boo. > > ETA: And even if the idea of Jacob and the “candidates” had been developed by the time of say, around season 3, I’m not sure that Ben and the Others would necessarily have been told about Jack, Kate, Hurley et. al. were special in some way, at least not at first. Ben, self-centered as he was, only interepreted Oceanic 815 as part of his “magic box” giving him just what he happened to need at that point – a spinal surgeon falling out of the sky. I see what you mean and can accept that explanation.. but I still think its odd that when they do reach the temple in the final season the Others suddenly treat them as special ‘candidates’.. but meh, its just a story 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Winston\_Bongo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a9adbd/32.png) [@Winston\_Bongo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Winston_Bongo)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/191 "2010-05-22T16:50:43Z")
With less than 36 hours to go, anyone want to play Guess the Ending? Since I have made predictions in the past only to have most turn out to be hilariously wrong, I clearly have no fear of being humiliated. So I will give it a try, and perhaps serve as an example/warning to others. I post it here rather than creating a new thread, because 6.16 is technically considered by many to be part of the finale. Also I’m afraid a brand new thread would just drop like a rock into a deep, deep lake. **THE END** – by Winston Bongo, based on deduction, induction, seduction, obsessive reading of any and all info about the finale (any guesses based on what few spoilers we’ve gotten will be boxed), and also some vodka. Okay, we now know that MIB wants to destroy the Island. Yes, that’s a slight change from his goal of the last 2,000 years. But I guess everyone gets fed up at some point. As W.C. Fields said, “If at first you don’t succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There’s no point in being a damn fool about it.” So to hell with all the puppet master crap, he’s just going to kill the Island. And he needs Desmond to do it because, as Widmore so kindly informed us, Des is immune to the Island’s electromagnetic energy (or Magical Fairy Light, however you prefer to interpret it). I think MIB wants to do to Desmond what Jacob did to _him_ ages ago: throw him into the Source at the heart of the Island. Since Des is immune to whatever is in there that would Smokerize him, he would instead serve as a sort of “circuit breaker,” canceling out the flow of Shiny and effectively causing a system failure. (Defcon Penguin returns!) As CrazyMom said, when the light goes out on the Island, it goes out everywhere, i.e. the spark of goodness in the heart of every person dies. This is what Widmore meant when he said MIB would make everything they know and love “cease to be.” And with the Source extinguished, Jack-as-new-Jacob would be rendered powerless as well. So that’s MIB’s plan. But obviously that’s not all going to work out, because evil would triumph, and that would suck. Now, this next part is based partially on spoilers, specifically some leaked script pages (confirmed genuine) on the DarkUFO site. I’m convinced these were leaked on purpose, because they don’t actually reveal much that we don’t already know from 6.16, and mainly serve as a teaser. But there is one tantalizing bit of info that seems to point toward a resolution of the Island/ATL business, so I’ll spoiler box it . . . [SPOILER]In the leaked pages, Smocke specifically says he plans to destroy the Island by _sinking_ it, while he escapes via Desmond’s boat. Finally a connection to that perplexing “sunken Island” scene in 6.1! So, if I’m right and using Desmond as a “circuit breaker” works, it will cause the Island to capsize, because the Source power was keeping it afloat in the first place. But if MIB succeeds in sinking the Island in the main timeline, how does it end up in that state in the ATL? Because (and here the pulling of random guesses from my ass becomes just absolutely ridiculous) someone, I have no idea who, manages to get to the Frozen Donkey Wheel in time to turn it just as MIB makes his move. The Island is indeed sunk, but it is also sent _back in time_, creating the ATL timeline! Which means, despite what many (including me) have theorized, Jughead was NOT responsible for the creation of the ATL: all it did was launch the Losties back to 2007 and become “the Incident.” Jughead was actually an example of Faraday’s “what happened, happened” theory. This was also the event Richard witnessed that he interpreted as the death of the 1977 Losties. (But then what do we make of Dead Juliet’s statement that “It worked”? Jughead did not directly create the ATL, but _did_ send the Losties back to 2007, which led to the events we’re seeing now. These events will culminate in the Island being sent back in time to create the ATL, thus preventing the crash of 815. So in a roundabout way, Juliet was right.) But wait, if the Island gets sent back in time and sunk, what of MIB? The ATL is clearly not infected by Evil Incarnate any more than our world is. So I predict that, while MIB is successful in sinking the Island, he is NOT successful in escaping. He is defeated/destroyed somehow by the actions of our heroes before the Island is sent back in time (maybe his using Des as a “circuit breaker” also robs him of his Smokey powers, leaving him vulnerable). As a result, the ATL is not corrupted by his influence. Now, we know the ATL has to be the “epilogue” because the characters there in 2004 are slowly becoming aware of events from the other timeline _up to 2007_. This means the ATL must have been “created” at some point we have yet to see (i.e. MIB sinking the Island), and the ATL folks are remembering everything that happened up to that point. So, what exactly is ATL Secret Agent Desmond up to? It has to do with the Source. Doc Jensen of _Entertainment Weekly_ guessed there would be a transfer of the Source power from the Island timeline to various people in the ATL. Maybe Desmond wants the ATL folks to remember the Island timeline so he can transfer the Island’s Shiny Magic to them. That way, even though the Island sinks and everyone in the Island timeline dies with it, the Source lives on through those who interacted with the Island in the ATL, and thus the world survives.[/SPOILER] Yes, I realize this theory has more holes than Swiss cheese (but then so does a typical _Lost_ script). Specifically, it doesn’t provide much of a role for Jack as the new Island Protector. But I’ve always doubted those who have guessed the series would end with Jack continuing as the new Jacob and someone else serving as the new MIB. The producers have repeatedly said that the story will have a definite ending (hence the finale title). Plus, remember what Jacob said: “It only ends once.” I think the long cycle of Island protectors will finally be broken: Jack is the last Protector of the Island, because, when all is said and done, there will be no need for another. Anyway, most of this is probably more wrong than wrong has ever been. But dammit, I’ve been obsessively trying to figure out the ending for weeks, and I’m sure as hell not going to keep my lunatic conclusions to myself! I would love to hear competing theories as well (hopefully minus the phrase, “Winston, you are a babbling idiot,” which is a given). ---
**Author:** ![Algernon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a183cd/32.png) [@Algernon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algernon)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/192 "2010-05-23T15:28:56Z")
**Winston** , you are a babbling idiot. 🙂 Actually, I’m surprised no one has responded to your theories. I guess the end is so close that everyone is resigned to just wait to see what happens, happens. But you’ve put so much thought into your theory that I wanted to come out and say that I kind of like it. No idea if it is anywhere near what is going to happen later tonight, but I like it. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/193 "2010-05-23T15:50:49Z")
I second the babbling part at least. The main flaw I see with that resolution is that it’s roughly the same ending that happened on _Buffy_. The power was transferred from one to many, and thus the world was saved. I can’t see the producers using that as an ending. Too derivative. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/194 "2010-05-23T16:16:03Z")
> [@BrianJ4](#): > > I see what you mean and can accept that explanation.. but I still think its odd that when they do reach the temple in the final season the Others suddenly treat them as special ‘candidates’.. but meh, its just a story 🙂 But they didn’t. Dogan was going to kill them, up until Hurley gave him the Ankh. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Winston\_Bongo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a9adbd/32.png) [@Winston\_Bongo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Winston_Bongo)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/195 "2010-05-23T21:54:36Z")
> [@Algernon](#): > > **Winston** , you are a babbling idiot. 🙂 > > Actually, I’m surprised no one has responded to your theories. I guess the end is so close that everyone is resigned to just wait to see what happens, happens. > > But you’ve put so much thought into your theory that I wanted to come out and say that I kind of like it. No idea if it is anywhere near what is going to happen later tonight, but I like it. Why thank you, kind sir! (Or madam, as the case may be.) It’s always good to know one’s lunatic ravings are appreciated, inaccurate as they will probably turn out to be. And yes, I agree that most fans have now reached the point of exhaustion when it comes to trying to figure the show out. Our brains have been put in a blender for 6 seasons, and \*we canna take much more a’ this, cap’n! \* (Sorry, wrong show.) And **silenus** is probably right. I’ve never seen _Buffy_ so I didn’t realize the similarities to my theory. I do think something final will happen regarding the Source, though. Only a few hours until we find out! ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/196 "2010-05-23T23:50:52Z")
> [@Algernon](#): > > Actually, I’m surprised no one has responded to your theories. I guess the end is so close that everyone is resigned to just wait to see what happens, happens. Yeah, I didn’t even read his theory, just in case he’s close to the real thing, I don’t want to be watching the show and go “ohhh… I just read that!” ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/197 "2010-05-24T21:46:14Z")
I didn’t read Winston’s post because I didn’t want to take the chance of being spoiled. Now that I have, I like his ending better than the real one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915.md?page=9)