# LOST 6.16 "What They Died For" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 18, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915 "2010-05-18T17:30:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/101 "2010-05-19T16:11:46Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Ben was lying. That’s what he does. Yes, jacob never spoke to Ben. Something that reeeeealy pissed Ben off. Flat out stated by Ben and jacob. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/102 "2010-05-19T16:17:30Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > But as we step back and see how the story is resolving itself and we can smell the barn from here…I have to say that: I miss the Dharma Initiative. I think my favorite episodes were all those Season 2 eps where we start to get glimpses into the DI: the Marvin Candle videos, the secret map, the numbers, Defcon Penguin, new stations revealed…that was a great arc that just kinda petered out. This. 100% _this_. Plus, why did Dr. Candle have all those pseudonyms? ---
**Author:** ![middleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@middleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/middleman)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/103 "2010-05-19T16:24:28Z")
More love for the Dharma Initiative. It was the best thing about the show. A bunch of mystery that turned out to be not so mysterious… ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/104 "2010-05-19T16:28:59Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Seriously though, yeah he was in a mental institution, but he got cured. Hence the trip to Australia. He’d even found closure when he talked to the widow of his mental institution buddy. He doesn’t come close to fitting the screwed-uppedness of the other three remaining candidates. Hell, even Jack is just a slightly depressed guy with an alcoholic ass hole for a father. He’s obviously very special as there can’t be more than a couple of million of those on the planet, can there? ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/105 "2010-05-19T17:08:21Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I’m a little perplexed as to why people are saying this episode is so much better than the last one. And I guess the fits, since I was perplexed at why most here people (who are rarely ever very critical of the show) didn’t like that one. That was a fluke, and this is just returning to the norm. Not sure why though. I think there were two elements for me. One is simply vastly lowered expectations, which also inspired me to spoil myself with a complete rundown of this ep. Then when I actually watched it, it was a lot more interesting than I thought from reading about it. Watching Desmond pull off a caper was fun. Miles is fun. Seeing Mira Furlan as a normal person was fun. I also never cared much about Widmore and had basically forgotten his whole thing with Ben, so that helped. > [@](#): > > Ok, so Jack is the new Jacob. That was… perfunctory. Jacob basically says “hey, magic light needs to be protected, who wants this shit?” and Jack said “yeah ok whatever, I will take on this indefinite responsibility where I become a magical mysterious asshole on this weird ass island I’ve been trapped on without an explanation. That’s how I roll, son.” He doesn’t bother to ask what this “light of the island” Jacob just brought up for the first time is, or what he’d have to do, or any questions about the nature of the island. He just goes ahead and accepts it. Here, I think they actually laid a lot of groundwork, and I think it works as an interesting character story. It’s the story of the “Man of Science” becoming the man of faith. The major transformation started when Jack decided he had to get back to the island, and completely solidified when the bomb plot didn’t work and got Juliet killed. In my view, his decision to do what Jacob asked without question came not in this episode, but when he jumped off Sawyer’s sailboat. He is convinced that there is fate at work, and has surrendered to it. > [@](#): > > The explanation as to why they were candidates was pretty unsatisfying. Yep, you have unmet needs in your life. That makes you a very unique human being! That’s what I brought you here! Well, yeah, that was about as ham-fisted a retcon as I’ve ever seen - no argument. **Koxinga** , Jack’s bloody neck appeared in the first episode of the season as well, on the flight that didn’t crash. I’m sure it will be related to his ultimate act as island protector somehow. ---
**Author:** ![Winston\_Smith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e95f7d/32.png) [@Winston\_Smith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Winston_Smith)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/106 "2010-05-19T17:11:14Z")
> [@Monstre](#): > > A feeling I’m getting on how this could end… Jack becomes the new Jacob, he manage to kill the MIB with a little help from his friends, but somebody else goes into the cave, and a NEW Smokey is born. Possibly Ben? And history repeats. Jack now has to keep Smokey 2 bottled up… and the wheel turns. Holy crap! YES! Except it will be Sawyer that becomes the new Smokey, because _all he’s ever wanted was to get off that Island_. Juliet (or the promise of saving her) could get him to dive in there. Now I shall read the rest of the thread to see if someone else came up with this before me. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/107 "2010-05-19T17:19:52Z")
[![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/WRzdYS1zWrw/hqdefault.jpg "Mark Pellegrino & Titus Welliver On 'Lost' Finale (Part 1) | Totally Lost | Entertainment Weekly") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRzdYS1zWrw) ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/108 "2010-05-19T17:23:08Z")
> [@BrianJ4](#): > > I’d say that wasn’t Jacob at all, but Smokey.. manipulating them both. But wasn’t the house within the confines of the electromagnetic repulsion things? ---
**Author:** ![Monstre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Monstre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstre)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/109 "2010-05-19T17:55:33Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > No, but it fits with the flash sideways, I think. I remember earlier on in this season we see the island _underwater_, which could be essentially destroyed… I was just saying that this pronouncement shouldn’t keep island Ben motivated to keep helping Smokey. After all, Smokey promised Ben that he would get to be King of the Island once he (Smokey) left. Now he’s telling Ben, “But, I’m going to go ahead and destroy the island.” Ben: “So… I become the overlord/king/leader/first-in-command of… nothing?” Island Ben doesn’t know about the side flashes, or how they relate (or would relate). ---
**Author:** ![Nature\_s\_Call](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nature_s_call/32/19006_2.png) [@Nature\_s\_Call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nature_s_Call)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/110 "2010-05-19T17:59:32Z")
> [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](#): > > > [@SenorBeef](#): > > > > The explanation as to why they were candidates was pretty unsatisfying. Yep, you have unmet needs in your life. That makes you a very unique human being! That’s what I brought you here! > > Well, yeah, that was about as ham-fisted a retcon as I’ve ever seen - no argument. I agree it was unsatisfying. However, it seems having a sucky life was simply a necessary criteria, i.e. it’s not that having a sucky life makes you special, and certainly not to suggest Jacob scanned the entire planet’s population for the suckiest of the sucky. Amongst those Jacob happened to consider, these 6 (of the one time 360 - perhaps more) had the necessary qualifications - and only necessary because Jacob has compassion. It is probably open to him to kidnap someone and force feed the kool-aid (force drink?). He did say he wanted to give these candidates something he didn’t have: a choice (but he DID choose, no?) Anyways… enough rambling. Yes, unsatisfying explanation, but they’re just chalk lines on a cave wall. Jacob needs a replacement and has a thing for numbers. ETA: “Jacob has compassion” i.e. he didn’t want to disrupt the life of someone with a happy life. He wanted to give his candidates a potentially improved, meaningful life. ---
**Author:** ![Monstre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Monstre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstre)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/111 "2010-05-19T18:08:06Z")
> [@Winston\_Smith](#): > > Holy crap! YES! Except it will be Sawyer that becomes the new Smokey, because _all he’s ever wanted was to get off that Island_. Juliet (or the promise of saving her) could get him to dive in there. > > Now I shall read the rest of the thread to see if someone else came up with this before me. 🙂 Sawyer occurred to me, too – as another good possibility for Smokey 2. Especially since he and Jack have a history of going back and forth between being friends and beating the crap out of each other. ---
**Author:** ![middleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@middleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/middleman)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/112 "2010-05-19T18:11:09Z")
> [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](#): > > **Koxinga** , Jack’s bloody neck appeared in the first episode of the season as well, on the flight that didn’t crash. I’m sure it will be related to his ultimate act as island protector somehow. Stigmata! > [@Nature\_s\_Call](#): > > I agree it was unsatisfying. However, it seems having a sucky life was simply a necessary criteria, i.e. it’s not that having a sucky life makes you special, and certainly not to suggest Jacob scanned the entire planet’s population for the suckiest of the sucky. > > Amongst those Jacob happened to consider, these 6 (of the one time 360 - perhaps more) had the necessary qualifications - and only necessary because Jacob has compassion. It is probably open to him to kidnap someone and force feed the kool-aid (force drink?). He did say he wanted to give these candidates something he didn’t have: a choice (but he DID choose, no?) > > Anyways… enough rambling. Yes, unsatisfying explanation, but they’re just chalk lines on a cave wall. Jacob needs a replacement and has a thing for numbers. > > ETA: “Jacob has compassion” i.e. he didn’t want to disrupt the life of someone with a happy life. He wanted to give his candidates a potentially improved, meaningful life. I’m of the same mind. Kind of like picking the Pony Express from Orphans, so no one will be sad when they die. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/113 "2010-05-19T18:41:02Z")
Hm…what if Alt-Desmond’s “Set him free” (or “Help him let go” or whatever it was) with Alt-Locke was actually _killing_ him. Maybe Desmond-Prime and Alt-Desmond both know that if Alt-Locke is alive, it gives Smokey power or an escape route or something. I wonder if Alt-Locke will die on the operating table with Alt-Sayid and Alt-Hurley helping Alt-Locke’s death. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/114 "2010-05-19T18:43:41Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Hm…what if Alt-Desmond’s “Set him free” (or “Help him let go” or whatever it was) with Alt-Locke was actually _killing_ him. > > Maybe Desmond-Prime and Alt-Desmond both know that if Alt-Locke is alive, it gives Smokey power or an escape route or something. I wonder if Alt-Locke will die on the operating table with Alt-Sayid and Alt-Hurley helping Alt-Locke’s death. Maybe they just rest the whole thing by pressing Ctrl-Alt-Delete. ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/115 "2010-05-19T18:45:26Z")
Couldn’t Jacob find a better way to track the candidates other than scrawling their names on a remote cave wall? Someone had to build that lighthouse. I assume it was Jacob because the candidates’ names were there. The names in the lighthouse are redundant with the cave wall, no? When we had about 6 candidates left, he made a special trip down to the cave to cross Kate’s name off the wall? ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/116 "2010-05-19T18:53:40Z")
I didn’t want to get into this show from the beginning. I was going to wait to see if answers were satisfactory for me to rent the series later on, but Lost has turned into ‘family night’ at my house. My brother got my father into it, and my mother cooks us dinner every Tuesday. Although I’m happy to have had spent time with my family, I doubt there’s anything in the final that would make me go on this ride alone. Jacob’s speech to the remaining candidates just pissed me off. Yeah they were all seeking for something more… but only one of them gets to be ‘something more’, and Jack didn’t even ask what he was guarding. The rest of them get to either die or watch their friends die. This is just one of many problems I’ve had. I asked my brother when he was getting us to watch every single episode; “What if they don’t answer everything?” and, “What if the answers suck?” I don’t remember how he replied to it but I’m worried he may feel a little embarrassed when all is said and done. Of course I wont give him a hard time. But I don’t think he wont naturally feel a little red in the face. I hope I’m wrong and the end provides all that’s needed to make a well rounded show. I obviously have my doubts. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/117 "2010-05-19T19:16:02Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > You know, I’m starting to wonder if Flocke is actually the Smoke Monster. I mean, we never actually see him turn into smoke - and Lost surely has the budget to do that effect if they wished. Do they? Lost doesn’t even have the budget to make the smoke look good! ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Q](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/898d66/32.png) [@Johnny\_Q](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Q)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/118 "2010-05-19T19:22:35Z")
I wonder if Desmond’s beating will eventually cause Alt-Ben to go evil as well. While he was getting the shit beat out of him he flashed to Ben Prime and realized why this man is beating him to a bloody pulp. He even enigmatically states that Desmond thinks he’s someone else. Just how will contact with his dark side affect him? ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/119 "2010-05-19T19:35:52Z")
Another quick question: In Room 23, why did the _Dharma_ video that Alex’s boyfriend was forced to watch contain the phrase “God loves you as he loves Jacob”? How did Dharma know about Jacob? ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/120 "2010-05-19T19:47:16Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > In Room 23, why did the _Dharma_ video that Alex’s boyfriend was forced to watch contain the phrase “God loves you as he loves Jacob”? How did Dharma know about Jacob? Jacob is a biblical name too. Why would we assume it refers to the same Jacob and isn’t just a crazy in-joke? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915.md?page=7)