# LOST 6.16 "What They Died For" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 18, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915 "2010-05-18T17:30:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/141 "2010-05-20T00:38:09Z")
Star Trek TNG - Allegiance An unknown force transports Picard into a trapped place, where he joins other captives who have very different temperaments and mistrust each-other but have no hope to escape unless they manage to collaborate. Meanwhile Picard has a replica of himself aboard the Enterprise. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/142 "2010-05-20T00:50:58Z")
> [@Bearflag70](#): > > Star Trek TNG - Allegiance > > An unknown force transports Picard into a trapped place, where he joins other captives who have very different temperaments and mistrust each-other but have no hope to escape unless they manage to collaborate. Meanwhile Picard has a replica of himself aboard the Enterprise. This random bit of nerdery brought to you by **Bearflag70**. Please think of **Bearflag70** for all your future nerdery needs. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/143 "2010-05-20T01:48:21Z")
The writers are like a guy so drunk that he can run, but not walk. As soon as he starts to reach his destination, he slows down and begins to trip and stumble. And the faster he _was_ running, the rougher his eventual collapse. As long as they could keep introducing new mysteries, the writers didn’t worry much about coherently explaining the old ones. They could explain some things if they wanted, but the big core mysteries were always up ahead, and they could always invent new ones behind the old ones. Now that we’re at the end, they suddenly realize that they can’t explain things. So many unexplained oddities, so much momentum built up, that as they slow down they’re starting to fall over. I think the last episode will be very, very unsatisfying. Some mysteries will be explained, poorly, others will remain mysterious. And I’m willing to bet that the writers won’t be able to resist throwing in one last WTF mystery at the end. Instead of walking up to his house, the drunk will run right past it. It’s all he knows how to do. All that said, this episode was significantly better than the last one. The best line was from Non-Crazy-But-Still-French Lady, about having Ben over for dinner even if they had to kidnap him. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Prize](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Sir\_Prize](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Prize)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/144 "2010-05-20T02:10:26Z")
> [@middleman](#): > > We can all bitch and moan about the ending, writing, and production, but hasn’t the acting been heroically good despite these flaws? Sawyer’s look of anguish when he asked Jack if he was to blame, and Jack’s compassion when he told him it was Flocke’s fault. It was a good scene. I expected there to be some reference to the con man getting conned. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/145 "2010-05-20T02:13:05Z")
> [@Rushgeekgirl](#): > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRzdYS1zWrw&feature=related](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRzdYS1zWrw&feature=related) I just want to say that everyone should watch this. I hate links that have no description, but I clicked this one. It’s Jacob at EW offices having troubles fitting it. It’s hilarious. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/146 "2010-05-20T02:50:52Z")
No, seriously. This is my favorite Youtube clip right now. [Mom Liked You Best](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJVSRqltKsU&feature=channel) ---
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/147 "2010-05-20T03:47:05Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > I just want to say that everyone should watch this. I hate links that have no description, but I clicked this one. > > It’s Jacob at EW offices having troubles fitting it. > > It’s hilarious. I am so sorry! I don’t usually do that either and hate it myself. I was just laughing so much at it I wanted to pass it on as soon as I saw it and got sloppy. Glad you enjoyed it though! ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/148 "2010-05-20T03:48:37Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > No, seriously. This is my favorite Youtube clip right now. > > [Mom Liked You Best](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJVSRqltKsU&feature=channel) “She smacked my head against the wall and broke my well. And my donkey wheel!” ---
**Author:** ![Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a9a28c/32.png) [@Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oslo_Ostragoth)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/149 "2010-05-20T04:55:21Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > No, seriously. This is my favorite Youtube clip right now. > > [Mom Liked You Best](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJVSRqltKsU&feature=channel) This is obviously a big project. If anyone knows the backstory, I’d love to hear it. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/150 "2010-05-20T05:30:04Z")
It reminds me of the copier commercials back in the mid-80s when they brought the whole cast of M_A_S\*H together (including Henry Blake!), only now they were all working in a cubicle-filled office talking about document management. Actually, the ATL “flash-sideways” reminds me a lot of that too. ---
**Author:** ![Monstre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Monstre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstre)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/151 "2010-05-20T05:54:56Z")
> [@Winston\_Bongo](#): > > I have no idea what he’s got planned for the ATL Losties at the concert, but seeing him take on the role of master manipulator is pretty cool. Desmond as ALT Puppet Master was definitely awesome. I don’t think they are all going to the concert, though – just him and Kate. I’m guessing that the concert he’s referring to is the one Jack’s son is playing in, and that headed there to recruit Jack. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/152 "2010-05-20T13:30:11Z")
> [@Monstre](#): > > Desmond as ALT Puppet Master was definitely awesome. I don’t think they are all going to the concert, though – just him and Kate. I’m guessing that the concert he’s referring to is the one Jack’s son is playing in, and that headed there to recruit Jack. Of course. Sawyer will be there, too, with Miles. What if Jack’s son (can’t remember his name) stars playing the weepy-Lost piano theme, and they all start remembering their Island lives? So, I watched it again last night, and if no one has brought this up yet, I think it’s obvious why Jack decided to drink the Kool Aid. He knows he has to kill Locke, and figures the best way to do that is to become like Jacob. The question is, what does it mean to become like Jacob. He did look like suddenly he had some new knowledge. Maybe he inherits knowledge of the Island mysteries. And one has to wonder if Alt-Jack has to kill Alt-Locke in the ATL. Sort of like he almost killed Ben on the operating table. And if they really want to preserve some symmetry in the Island time, they’d have Clouseau become the new smoke monster, since she’s Jack’s sister. ---
**Author:** ![crazyjoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@crazyjoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crazyjoe)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/153 "2010-05-20T13:51:35Z")
For those of you trying to explain LOST to your friends, and wondering what the finale is going to be like (no spoilers, though). [http://basicinstructions.net/](http://basicinstructions.net/) ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/154 "2010-05-20T13:56:11Z")
> [@crazyjoe](#): > > For those of you trying to explain LOST to your friends, and wondering what the finale is going to be like (no spoilers, though). > > [http://basicinstructions.net/](http://basicinstructions.net/) Here’s [the direct link](http://basicinstructions.net/basic-instructions/2010/5/19/how-to-discuss-lost.html) for when it’s no longer on the front page. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/155 "2010-05-20T14:16:34Z")
> [@RainGrowsBrite](#): > > Also, I’m not convinced that anyone has to be the new Smokey. But if anyone was going to turn into one, I think Sawyer is a good candidate. He’s lost his will to live after Juliette and his feeling responsible for Sun and Jin. Not to mention that he _really wants to get off the island_. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/156 "2010-05-20T14:26:54Z")
> [@Winston\_Bongo](#): > > 1. \*Jack remains an idiot: \* True, this is nothing new, but as other posters have pointed out, would it have been so hard to just ASK Jacob what the “light at the heart of the Island” is and why protecting it is so important? People applying for a part-time job ask more questions than Jack did. At least when Jacob drank the Magic Kool-Aid, he had 30 years of brainwashing by CrazyMom to partially excuse him. What was Jack’s excuse? Oh yeah: he’s an idiot. Frankly I don’t understand why Jack would be the candidate because of this. Jack didn’t want to push the button every 108 minutes because they didn’t know much about it. While Desmond continuously did so. I think Desmond would make a better protector. He doesn’t ask questions… ---
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/157 "2010-05-20T14:39:59Z")
That’s sort of the point of Jack’s character development from the start of the series to now. He was originally the Man of Science and he has now become the Man of Faith. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/158 "2010-05-20T14:57:07Z")
I guess I never bought the Man Of Science/Man Of Faith dichotomy, mostly because Jack has never acted like a man of science. Men of science are curious, they ask questions and try to figure things out, and try to infer logical things from what they know. Jack is just a bumbling idiot. I’m not sure we’ve ever seen him make a single logical deduction about anything. So it’s more like Man of Bumbling Idiocy vs Man Of Mystical Idiocy. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/159 "2010-05-20T15:16:48Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I guess I never bought the Man Of Science/Man Of Faith dichotomy, mostly because Jack has never acted like a man of science. Men of science are curious, they ask questions and try to figure things out, and try to infer logical things from what they know. Jack is just a bumbling idiot. I’m not sure we’ve ever seen him make a single logical deduction about anything. So it’s more like Man of Bumbling Idiocy vs Man Of Mystical Idiocy. You’re right, it’s def. not science vs faith. The writers seemed to be reaching for something in that direction, though. Maybe pragmatism vs idealism? Nihilism vs self-deception? Something. Interestingly, though Jack changed from wanting to get off the island to wanting to get back on, I’d say his fundamental outlook didn’t change. He never started asking questions about the deeper significance of the island, for example. He never attributed meaning to mysterious events. He just suddenly acquired a fundamental, unexplained desire to get to the island. He didn’t place this desire into any larger story to try to make sense of it. Instead, he just _had_ the desire, and followed it. Locke, having the same desire, kept trying to look for a mythology to fit it into. So on this reading, the dichotomy between the two remained the same throughout the series, and it’s a mistake to link desire-for-island to that dichotomy. The desires came and went, seemingly capriciously (probably because of the island’s influence), and what illustrated the dichotomy was the way the two characters dealt with that desire both intellectually and in practice. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915/160 "2010-05-20T15:34:14Z")
> [@Rushgeekgirl](#): > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRzdYS1zWrw&feature=related](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRzdYS1zWrw&feature=related) Nice! I watched all 6. Good mixture of humor and seriousness. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-16-what-they-died-for/539915.md?page=9)