# LOST 6.17 "The End" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 23, 2010, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-17-the-end/540459 "2010-05-23T15:16:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![VunderBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/839c29/32.png) [@VunderBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VunderBob)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-17-the-end/540459/421 "2010-05-25T17:09:44Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yeah, I would like to have seen when Island Protector Og makes some scratches on a cave wall. Maybe 4 slashes, then 8, then 15, 16. Then Og scratches his head-- he can’t count any higher than 20 (fingers plus toes). So now we get to the subject of reincarnation in _Lost._ Island Protector Og was Jack in a previous life, and I cite the lighthouse episode as proof. Og/Jack saw the mystical mirror at the top, and Og Smash! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-17-the-end/540459/422 "2010-05-25T17:11:47Z")
Once Jack became Jacob, he probably did a :smack: over his smashing of the lighthouse. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-17-the-end/540459/423 "2010-05-25T18:18:57Z")
Why? Jacob built his and from all accounts, Jacob was dumb as a rock. A total freaking brain-damaged moron. If he could build one, Jack, who’s eleventeen billion times smarter than Jacob could make something a lot better. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-17-the-end/540459/424 "2010-05-25T18:40:13Z")
What does it mean if you are in the ATL, but get killed there? Like Keamy and Mikhail? Too evil to be allowed to “move on”? Maybe that’s why Sayid gets a “Get Out of ATL Free” card, because those guys needed killing. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-17-the-end/540459/425 "2010-05-25T18:48:26Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > …(I’ll add that the original MiB’s motivation for wanting to leave, when he was among the other people who had come to the island, may have been different than the motivation of Smokey/FLocke. In his younger days, MiB seemed to just want to go back to be with people and get away from Mom. Later it seemed that he wanted to wreak some kind of havoc.) Of course his motivation is different - later on, he’s NOT just Jacob’s brother, but a conglomeration of the evil Smoke Monster entity (which predates Jacob tossing his brother into the lighted cave), plus some aspects of the brother. So - pre-cave, brother is just the cynic / worldly / curious one with no emotional tie to the island, post-cave, smoke-brother is all of that plus all the rage and hatred that had been bottled up on the island pretty much forever. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-17-the-end/540459/426 "2010-05-25T18:49:20Z")
I personally wouldn’t mind a summary from the writers explaining the show. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-17-the-end/540459/427 "2010-05-25T18:51:27Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > What does it mean if you are in the ATL, but get killed there? Like Keamy and Mikhail? Too evil to be allowed to “move on”? Maybe that’s why Sayid gets a “Get Out of ATL Free” card, because those guys needed killing. I think (but will have to re-watch to be sure) that everyone who moved on with Jack had _some_ sort of redemption for their sins - in Sayid’s case, it was grabbing that bomb and running with it, sacrificing himself to save the others. That was a bit out of character actually, given that a couple of episodes earlier he sat by unblinking while Claire tried to kill Kate. Even Ben had some redemption, trying to help out at the end; interesting that he _chose_ to stay behind for a while longer (truly penitent / didn’t feel he’d done enough yet to move on? ). ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-17-the-end/540459/428 "2010-05-25T18:54:04Z")
And where does Jack’s ATL kid come from? Someone else’s dead kid who was ghostnapped to be Jack’s surrogate son? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-17-the-end/540459/429 "2010-05-25T18:57:14Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > What does it mean if you are in the ATL, but get killed there? Like Keamy and Mikhail? Too evil to be allowed to “move on”? Maybe that’s why Sayid gets a “Get Out of ATL Free” card, because those guys needed killing. Well, more generally, what are all the random people in the ATL? The people driving by in their cars, the guys sweeping the floors - this isn’t the afterlife of all of humanity, right? So are all the non-Losties in this little universe that everyone interacts with just hallucinations? Did they create an entire world, with a working economy, politics, etc. just to keep them busy until they all met up together? ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-17-the-end/540459/430 "2010-05-25T19:16:05Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Well, more generally, what are all the random people in the ATL? The people driving by in their cars, the guys sweeping the floors - this isn’t the afterlife of all of humanity, right? So are all the non-Losties in this little universe that everyone interacts with just hallucinations? Did they create an entire world, with a working economy, politics, etc. just to keep them busy until they all met up together? Although it’s not related to my question, it is a good discussion point. I would say that it _is_ the afterlife of all humanity. Just this particular “church service” is based on Jack. Otherwise you have to theorize that every person has his own individual purgatory, and also has to participate in the purgatories of everyone else he knows. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-17-the-end/540459/431 "2010-05-25T19:23:13Z")
Oh, by the way, did anybody see the remake of “[The Prisoner](http://www.amctv.com/originals/the-prisoner/)” last year (rhetorical question, don’t post an answer :))? That was another series (just a few shows, a miniseries) that ended with the explanation that the whole thing was a virtual world, created by psychoactive drugs or some such thing. In that case, I think they were trying to create a cogent ending to explain what was never explained in conclusion to the original series, which is a bit of a different task than writing an ending to something you conceived from the very beginning. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-17-the-end/540459/432 "2010-05-25T19:31:41Z")
Jason Reich (comedian)'s Twitter post after the finale: “The church was a rocket ship that took them all to the Candy Planet. There, I just wrote a more interesting ending.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-17-the-end/540459/433 "2010-05-25T20:19:31Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Why? Jacob built his and from all accounts, Jacob was dumb as a rock. A total freaking brain-damaged moron. If he could build one, Jack, who’s eleventeen billion times smarter than Jacob could make something a lot better. I wasn’t really all that serious in writing that, but I don’t see how destroying something useful like that is a “meh”. We don’t know how long it took Jacob to build the lighthouse, and even if Jack can build it x times as fast, it still might take him a hundred years to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-17-the-end/540459/434 "2010-05-25T21:31:17Z")
Just thought of something else that was odd: when Eloise asked Desmond “are you going to take my son?” and he answered “not with me, no”. What do you think that was about? Is Daniel going to go along later when Mom and Dad are ready? ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-17-the-end/540459/435 "2010-05-25T21:38:23Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > The whole series was not some instantaneous imaginary flash in Jack’s mind before his died. :rolleyes: That’s just… stupid. Not that I subscribe to that theory, but let’s be real here. It’s no dumber than how the show actually ended, with a giant non-sequitur and middle-finger to those who watched the show from the beginning. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-17-the-end/540459/436 "2010-05-25T22:03:27Z")
> [@Mama\_Zappa](#): > > Just thought of something else that was odd: when Eloise asked Desmond “are you going to take my son?” and he answered “not with me, no”. What do you think that was about? Is Daniel going to go along later when Mom and Dad are ready? I think that was the implication, yes. Also, likely, after re-establishing his connection with Charlotte. Not that it makes the earlier scenes with Desmond and Daniel make much sense… ---
**Author:** ![kath94](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/67e7ee/32.png) [@kath94](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kath94)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-17-the-end/540459/437 "2010-05-25T23:08:56Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I personally wouldn’t mind a summary from the writers explaining the show. Yes, please. What was the origin of Widmore’s “military” group on the island? Why did he feel compelled to “fake” find Oceanic 815 with all souls aboard lost? What was the mechanism by which Penny located Desmond through the listening station? Why is the sky blue? (but sometimes purple?) ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-17-the-end/540459/438 "2010-05-25T23:51:02Z")
There is a very good summary that is quoted on a [thread from Lostpedia forum](http://forum.lostpedia.com/someone-bad-robots-take-finale-t59261.html). According to the poster, the quote is in turn from a post somewhere else by someone from Bad Robots, the production company, but he doesn’t provide a link. I have found hundreds of quotes to the same material but have not found the primary source, so I can’t vouch for it. The post is eminently sensible. The poster is not a writer but claims to know the writers. The summary points are: [ul] [li]Everything that happened on the island after the crash really happened. No “they all died,” no “Jack imagined it,” etc.[/li][li]Jacob brought people to the island many times over the centuries but “it always ends the same”–they are corrupted, Dharma and Ben included.[/li][li]After death, everyone creates their own “Sideways” purgatory with their “soulmates” throughout their lives and exist there until they all move on together[/li][li]The people who were not in the church must still find their soulmates before they “move on”[/li][li]The writers wrote the ending (the church scene) as they finished the pilot, and knew from the beginning how it would end.[/li][/ul] Regardless of its origins, the analysis is rational, fits all aspects of the story, and passes the Occam’s Razor test. I’m going with it. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-17-the-end/540459/439 "2010-05-26T00:14:14Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > Regardless of its origins, the analysis is rational, fits all aspects of the story, and passes the Occam’s Razor test. I’m going with it. …and still doesn’t answer shit. ---
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-17-the-end/540459/440 "2010-05-26T00:25:32Z")
Constants. Is soulmate just another name for a constant? Remember constants? I barely do, but that was pretty big there for a while. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-17-the-end/540459.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-17-the-end/540459.md?page=23)