# LOST 6.4 "The Substitute" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 16, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-4-the-substitute/529234 "2010-02-16T19:10:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-4-the-substitute/529234/141 "2010-02-20T07:30:32Z")
> [@Random\_Design](#): > > why was Jack’s theme playing while Locke was being buried? Wow you have a good ear. I’m aware of character themes from reading Bear McCreary’s blog about his work on BSG, but I never notice them consciously on either show. > [@Random\_Design](#): > > And I don’t see why Sawyer has any more interest in getting off the island now than when he earlier decided to skip out on the helicopter/freighter opportunity..? He jumped out to save lives. After that he stayed to be with Juliet. Now he has nothing left for him there and an opportunity to leave again. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > I mean, if the writers are going to solve the mystery by introducing a whole new set of characters, then that’s not really something we can figure out from having watched all along. I don’t think any of them are the sort of characters who will be getting flashbacks or anything. Really the only new characters are Dogen and Lennon, and we knew there were Others at the Temple already. I don’t think Lost is meant to be a “figure it out” type of mystery. Rather it’s a “anticipating the reveals” sort. > [@HelloNinja](#): > > Regarding whether or not “Kwon” refers to Jin or Sun (or their baby) - when they flashed to show Jacob touching people, didn’t he touch both Jin and Sun at the same time, on their arms? Maybe they’re both candidates. He put both his arms up, as though he were. Technically, the view of his hand on Sun was blocked by her body, so he could have theoretically faked us out. But since he touched Kate too, there’s no major new conflict involved if he touched both Sun and Jin. > [@EllisDee](#): > > The “enhanced” replay stated that Kate is innocent in the alternate timeline. Remember the scene in the hospital with Claire when Kate asked “Would you believe me if I told you I was innocent?” The bottom of the screen read something like: “This is a change; in the original timeline Kate was guilty” That’s what I thought too the first time I saw it. But later I went and checked the transcript: > [@](#): > > This is a flash sideways difference > from what was previously established. > Claire gave birth to her baby on the island > as seen in the Season 1 episode, “Do No Harm.” So now I’m not sure if the “difference” is referring to Kate’s “innocent” statement, or where Claire has the baby. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-4-the-substitute/529234/142 "2010-02-20T07:57:00Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > That’s what I thought too the first time I saw it. But later I went and checked the transcript: > […] > So now I’m not sure if the “difference” is referring to Kate’s “innocent” statement, or where Claire has the baby. Good find. I think they have to be two distinct thoughts. I mean, pointing out the “difference” that Claire gave birth on the island would be retarded. They might as well say “and Kate never sat in that particular hospital chair” for how helpful such an obvious statement would be. Besides, Claire chose _not_ to have the baby in the hospital, so it doubly wouldn’t make sense. She could still theoretically get on a plane, crash on the island and have the baby in the exact same spot with Kate helping deliver it just like in the first timeline. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Prize](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Sir\_Prize](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Prize)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-4-the-substitute/529234/143 "2010-02-20T15:43:05Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Besides, Claire chose _not_ to have the baby in the hospital, so it doubly wouldn’t make sense. She could still theoretically get on a plane, crash on the island and have the baby in the exact same spot with Kate helping deliver it just like in the first timeline. Only if she packs some scuba gear. The island sank. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-4-the-substitute/529234/144 "2010-02-20T16:51:05Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Didn’t he say you can’t kill him because he’s a candidate? That would mean he was talking about Sawyer, but then again I could be misremembering. He just said that he couldn’t kill him. It’s not clear to whom this rule refers. He also appeared when MiB was about to kill Richard too. ---
**Author:** ![Monstre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Monstre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstre)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-4-the-substitute/529234/145 "2010-02-20T17:49:53Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > He jumped out to save lives. After that he stayed to be with Juliet. Now he has nothing left for him there and an opportunity to leave again. I think at the helicopter, it was more than saving lives – I think Sawyer really chose to be the one to jump, because at that time Kate was leaning more towards being with Jack than with him. This was the end of season 4 – and I believe earlier in that “we’re being rescued” series of events was when Jack had told Kate he was in love with her. ---
**Author:** ![Monstre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Monstre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstre)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-4-the-substitute/529234/146 "2010-02-20T17:51:28Z")
Has anybody seen this interview clip yet? [Interview clips with cast](http://insidetv.aol.com/2010/02/19/lost-stars-what-show-mysteries-do-they-want-answered-video/?icid=main%7Cmain%7Cdl9%7Clink5%7Chttp%3A%2F%2Finsidetv.aol.com%2F2010%2F02%2F19%2Flost-stars-what-show-mysteries-do-they-want-answered-video%2F) In it, they ask the stars of LOST what questions _they_ want to have answered before it’s all over. Michael Emerson’s response is… just freakin awesome! ---
**Author:** ![Winston\_Bongo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a9adbd/32.png) [@Winston\_Bongo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Winston_Bongo)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-4-the-substitute/529234/147 "2010-02-20T18:09:17Z")
Running with the “Island is a prison for the MIB” theory (which I like), I wonder if this is where things are headed: 1. MIB has to convince Sawyer (and maybe some other folks) to help him get off the Island because the whatever mechanism is involved is unaccessible to him. Much like he could not directly kill Jacob and had to manipulate Ben into doing it for him, he must also manipulate others into helping him escape. He does this by appealing to their self-interest, as he did with Sawyer. 2. Eventually he succeeds, defeating Jacob’s followers and freeing himself from the Island. At this point he has no more need of Sawyer or anyone else, and his true plans to Take Over the World are revealed. Maybe he is the direct source of the “sickness” that spread to CFL’s team: he’s like a super-intelligent virus, and he wants to infect every living thing on earth. This is what Richard was trying to warn Sawyer about. 3. The whole world gets FUBAR. 4. Somebody has to set things right in the only way left, thus we’re back to time travel. Whoever/whatever is involved must reset the timeline by erasing the events that led to MIB getting off the Island. Beats me how they do it, but whatever it is ends up sinking/submerging the Island in the 1970s, destroying or permanently imprisoning MIB, sealing the Island’s secrets forever, and resulting in the LA X timeline where the Losties end up with better, though still not entirely happy lives. I’m sure this theory or something similar has been floated before, but I was curious to see what everyone else thinks. Although I really like the “LA X was the original, unaltered timeline” theory, I have growing doubts that it will turn out to be the right one. Now I’m thinking the LA X timeline has yet to be created from the 2007 Losties point of view. ---
**Author:** ![Shark\_Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f04885/32.png) [@Shark\_Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shark_Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-4-the-substitute/529234/148 "2010-02-21T00:38:27Z")
> [@Monstre](#): > > Has anybody seen this interview clip yet? > > [Interview clips with cast](http://insidetv.aol.com/2010/02/19/lost-stars-what-show-mysteries-do-they-want-answered-video/?icid=main%7Cmain%7Cdl9%7Clink5%7Chttp%3A%2F%2Finsidetv.aol.com%2F2010%2F02%2F19%2Flost-stars-what-show-mysteries-do-they-want-answered-video%2F) > > In it, they ask the stars of LOST what questions _they_ want to have answered before it’s all over. Michael Emerson’s response is… just freakin awesome! I like how they’re referring to Terry O’Quinn’s character as “John Locke/Smocke.” ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-4-the-substitute/529234/149 "2010-02-21T01:06:30Z")
A couple people have mentioned that the major conflict might not be between Good and Evil, but instead something else. In the preview interview I read before the season started, I’m pretty sure the writers explicitly said that this season’s conflict is between Good and Evil. Let me see if I can dig it up… Okay, found it. Here are the interesting bits from the interviews I remember reading, having dug them out of the magazine trash box. All numbered excerpts are verbatim transcriptions from the source. From Entertainment Weekly, Feb 5: 1. The season premiere will clarify Jin’s status, but Cuse and Lindelof are keeping mum about an imminent Jin-Sun reunion. They will reveal, however, that viewers won’t be explicitly told why Sun did not go back in time with the other castaways on Ajira flight 316 – though fans may be able to puzzle it out for themselves. 2. Jacob and [Man In Black] hate each other – but why? “It’s kind of the driving question of the whole season,” says Cuse, adding that the philosophical discussion between the two characters in last year’s finale “framed the conflict, which is not only a conflict between the two of them as representatives of good and evil, but also a conflict about what is the fundamental nature of man. Is man good or is man evil?” 3. The producers say the number and nature of the mysteries they intend to address during the show’s final 16 episodes will be guided by this principle: Does the question matter to the characters? “We don’t want the show to be pedantic,” says Cuse. “If the characters are not concerned with a question, how can we be concerned with it?” […] (They cite the “midichlorian” explanation for the Force put forth in the _Star Wars_ prequels as an example of overexplained lameness.) From TV Guide, Feb 15: 1. So should we discard all we learned in the previous seasons’ flashbacks? Pretty much, says executive producer Carlton Cuse. “All that matter now are the flash-sideways stories,” he says. 2. Why is the island now underwater? “It was a result of the explosion,” explains Lindelof, adding that with the island sunk in 1977, perhaps Jacob never touched the passengers’ lives off island. Excerpt 3 is what I was thinking of back on page 1 when I said I think this past episode is all the explanation of the numbers we’re going to get. Generally I’m disheartened by their criteria of only answering mysteries the characters care about. For five seasons it’s been made clear that the characters don’t care about _anything_. How many times have we seen the characters not ask the obvious question? They seem supernaturally uninquisitive. Specifically about the numbers, does Sawyer even know the numbers? Even if he did, I can’t imagine him caring enough to ask about them any further. Excerpt 1 is interesting. Anyone have any early ideas, or do you think we need to wait for the Jin-Sun episode? ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-4-the-substitute/529234/150 "2010-02-21T08:54:20Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > And a play on [What Kate Did](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Kate_Did) from season 2. Which was a play on the children’s book [What Katy Did](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Katy_Did), which was in itself a play on [katydids](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katydid), a kind of cricket. I don’t know if anyone else stumbled upon this name for “Esau” but I particularly liked it: _The Locke Dressed Monster_. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-4-the-substitute/529234/151 "2010-02-21T10:04:45Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > 1. Why is the island now underwater? “It was a result of the explosion,” explains Lindelof, adding that with the island sunk in 1977, perhaps Jacob never touched the passengers’ lives off island. That’s interesting. I wonder if it was a direct result or an eventual result? If it happened right away then they need to explain how young Ben escaped the island. > [@Monstre](#): > > I think Sawyer really chose to be the one to jump, because at that time Kate was leaning more towards being with Jack than with him. Yeah that was definitely a big factor. > [@Monstre](#): > > Michael Emerson’s response is… just freakin awesome! He does like strangling people lol. Unfortunately Flocke seems to be somewhat invulnerable to conventional attack. I feel somewhat confident that most of my questions will be answered. The one thing I’m slightly worried about though is that they had basically an entire season devoted to the Dharma initiative and yet only answered a few of the questions about it. They never addressed obvious things like the true purpose of the Pearl or Tempest stations, why Radinsky would make a tentative map of stations when he should already know where they are all, why stations that didn’t depend on island locations with special properties like The Orchid and Swan weren’t in Dharmaville (Pearl, Staff, Arrow, Hydra), how the truce ended, why Dharmites on Jacob’s list weren’t recruited to the Others, and why supply drops are still occuring. Given their criteria of “if the characters want to know” I’m not sure if any of these will get answered. I think the best we can hope for is some kind of DVD extras addressing these, or an eventual interview with the producers (which will be a while since they intend to go into radio silence after the series). ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-4-the-substitute/529234/152 "2010-02-21T14:47:32Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > I feel somewhat confident that most of my questions will be answered. The one thing I’m slightly worried about though is that they had basically an entire season devoted to the Dharma initiative and yet only answered a few of the questions about it. They never addressed obvious things like the true purpose of the Pearl or Tempest stations, why Radinsky would make a tentative map of stations when he should already know where they are all, why stations that didn’t depend on island locations with special properties like The Orchid and Swan weren’t in Dharmaville (Pearl, Staff, Arrow, Hydra), how the truce ended, why Dharmites on Jacob’s list weren’t recruited to the Others, and why supply drops are still occuring. Given their criteria of “if the characters want to know” I’m not sure if any of these will get answered. I think the best we can hope for is some kind of DVD extras addressing these, or an eventual interview with the producers (which will be a while since they intend to go into radio silence after the series). Regarding Radinsky - wasn’t there something that indicated that his brain had basically gotten scrambled at some point? I’m thinking he’d gotten hit with magnetism to the point that he had some major league magnet-induced Alzheimer’s. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Shark\_Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f04885/32.png) [@Shark\_Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shark_Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-4-the-substitute/529234/153 "2010-02-21T15:58:33Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > I feel somewhat confident that most of my questions will be answered. The one thing I’m slightly worried about though is that they had basically an entire season devoted to the Dharma initiative and yet only answered a few of the questions about it. They never addressed obvious things like the true purpose of the Pearl or Tempest stations, why Radinsky would make a tentative map of stations when he should already know where they are all, why stations that didn’t depend on island locations with special properties like The Orchid and Swan weren’t in Dharmaville (Pearl, Staff, Arrow, Hydra), how the truce ended, why Dharmites on Jacob’s list weren’t recruited to the Others, and why supply drops are still occuring. Given their criteria of “if the characters want to know” I’m not sure if any of these will get answered. I think the best we can hope for is some kind of DVD extras addressing these, or an eventual interview with the producers (which will be a while since they intend to go into radio silence after the series). I smell a follow-up book. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-4-the-substitute/529234/154 "2010-02-21T17:04:16Z")
imho, the island sank in the newtimeling when they set off the hydrogen bomb. ---
**Author:** ![Arcite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/67e7ee/32.png) [@Arcite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arcite)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-4-the-substitute/529234/155 "2010-02-21T21:42:49Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > I feel somewhat confident that most of my questions will be answered. The one thing I’m slightly worried about though is that they had basically an entire season devoted to the Dharma initiative and yet only answered a few of the questions about it. They never addressed obvious things like the true purpose of the Pearl or Tempest stations, why Radinsky would make a tentative map of stations when he should already know where they are all, why stations that didn’t depend on island locations with special properties like The Orchid and Swan weren’t in Dharmaville (Pearl, Staff, Arrow, Hydra), how the truce ended, why Dharmites on Jacob’s list weren’t recruited to the Others, and why supply drops are still occuring. Given their criteria of “if the characters want to know” I’m not sure if any of these will get answered. I think the best we can hope for is some kind of DVD extras addressing these, or an eventual interview with the producers (which will be a while since they intend to go into radio silence after the series). I agree with the gist of this, but I was pleased to see–I think it may have been mentioned upthread, but if not, I don’t have the source handy, sorry–that the producers recently said that we are going to learn why supply drops are still occurring. ---
**Author:** ![ProfessorX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@ProfessorX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ProfessorX)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-4-the-substitute/529234/156 "2010-02-22T20:06:16Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > imho, the island sank in the newtimeling when they set off the hydrogen bomb. Yeah, seems as if in the alternate storyline means that the island is underground and Jacob never lived there so couldn’t touch everyone’s lives and influence them to go to the island. ---
**Author:** ![Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a9a28c/32.png) [@Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oslo_Ostragoth)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-4-the-substitute/529234/157 "2010-02-24T05:21:27Z")
Probly dumb question, but here goes. How exactly did Sawyer know that Locke was dead? p.s. The subtitled versions are enormously helpful to me… ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-4-the-substitute/529234/158 "2010-02-24T05:33:27Z")
> [@Oslo\_Ostragoth](#): > > Probly dumb question, but here goes. How exactly did Sawyer know that Locke was dead? > > p.s. The subtitled versions are enormously helpful to me… Well, Sawyer at the very least spent several days (weeks) with Kate, Jack, Sayid and Hurley who all knew Locke was dead in 1977 at the DHARMA camp. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-4-the-substitute/529234/159 "2010-02-24T06:09:13Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > That’s interesting. I wonder if it was a direct result or an eventual result? If it happened right away then they need to explain how young Ben escaped the island. I’m guessing that a few women and children were able to get on a submarine when Dr. Chang ordered an evacuation before Radzinsky drilled through the pocket of energy at the Swan site. ---
**Author:** ![Rucksinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/898d66/32.png) [@Rucksinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rucksinator)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-4-the-substitute/529234/160 "2010-02-24T11:20:49Z")
Can somebody quickly clear up my timeline confusion? I haven’t been reading these threads this season. IIRC, Jack, Sayid, Hurley, Jin, Kate are all in the 70’s, where Sawyer and Juliet had been for 3 years. Sun, FLocke, Ben, Richard and the pilot are all in the present time (C. 2007). So how is FLocke able to talk to Sawyer? Also, Richard warned somebody about FLocke. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-4-the-substitute/529234.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-4-the-substitute/529234.md?page=9)