# LOST 6.6 "Sundown" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 2, 2010, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026 "2010-03-02T18:47:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/61 "2010-03-03T06:22:35Z")
> [@N9IWP](#): > > Jacob and the Man in Black are like the Vorlons and Shadows on Babylon 5. Althogh one may appear more evil on the surface, both are guilty of manipulation. Powerful forces with different ideas. Yeah, Jacob’s all “Who are you?” (are you the next me) and Smokey Joe’s all “What do you want?” (in exchange for helping me) ---
**Author:** ![Pigs\_in\_Space](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9d8465/32.png) [@Pigs\_in\_Space](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pigs_in_Space)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/62 "2010-03-03T06:44:13Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > I had the same question. Ben and Richard initiated the massacre of the Dharma Initiative. Does that mean Jacob was cool with it too? Also, when the Others were stealing people from the tail section, were they killing them too? > > The writers have seemed to switch the Others from bad to good rather abruptly. And if Jacob was against all this killing by the Others, why didn’t he bother speaking up?. Maybe that’s why Jacob never talked to Ben? ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/63 "2010-03-03T08:56:53Z")
> [@Arcite](#): > > And on that note, does anyone else not care for the flash-sideways at all? . To the contrary, I’m deathly afraid that the island action will somehow invalidate the flash-sideways, since as of now they seem to be more or less a happy ending or at least resolution to the main baggage of the Losties. I’m hoping they act as a sort of flash forward happy ending in one way or another. And in the case of the Kate episode, I found the sideways stuff more interesting or at least less annoying than the island stuff. > [@Justin\_Credible](#): > > Wow, that was the most action this show’s had since the initial plane crash. I had to keep myself from laughing at the sudden random kung fu action fight between Dogen and Sayid… The MIB stuff was cool though, very Raiders of the Lost Ark… > [@Arcite](#): > > “leave the island with me or I’ll kill you.” Why? If he can leave, and wants to leave, why doesn’t he just leave? What does he care whether anyone else stays? I agree. Especially because he doesn’t seem to gain anything other than people from his raid on the temple. It’s not like he’s suddenly shown being able to steal some important relic or anything. Hulk smash! All the non believers and then leaves. > [@Arcite](#): > > why can’t he just have Claire clear aside some of the ash? Good point. Also Lennon made a point of mentioning that it was Dogen being alive and not the ash that kept Smokey out for some reason… > [@Justin\_Credible](#): > > I was hoping to see Jin though. Jin and Sawyer and Richard are all conspicuously absent. Jin seemed to only be going along with Claire to avoid being killed by her. I suspect they will never address the point, but I’m wondering how Sawyer escaped the cave given that several of the ladders leading to and from it self destructed when he got on them. Richard was on his way to the temple but wasn’t seen with Ilana’s group. Also conspicuously absent were the other Others who originally were with Ben’s group. Where’d they go? And will we see the ultimate fate of the left behind Ajira passengers on Hydra Island? > [@ZipperJJ](#): > > Yeah…MiB/smokey is pretty much The Devil, no? You “sell your soul” for something really wonderful and a whole bunch of really awful stuff happens in return. According to Dogen, Jacob offered a similar bargain. > [@Erdosain](#): > > Ben and Richard initiated the massacre of the Dharma Initiative. Does that mean Jacob was cool with it too? Also, when the Others were stealing people from the tail section, were they killing them too? Anyone they bothered to steal joined the Others. Originally anyway - later kidnappings of Jack etc were for Ben’s surgery. I got the impression from the Tempest episode that the reason the Truce ultimately broke down was that Dharma were secretly creating an island wide Other-killing gas delivery system at what was disguised as or doubled as a power plant, the Other found out, and did a preemptive strike. > [@salinqmind](#): > > I’m wondering if we’ll ever see Desmond again…and dang, Frank Lapidus is a good looking man! … thats all I got. I suspect, given his relative absence so far, that Desmond is the ‘someone’ or one of the somepeople Jacob says is coming to the island… ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/64 "2010-03-03T08:57:35Z")
_ignore this post_ ---
**Author:** ![Rich\_Mann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ce73a5/32.png) [@Rich\_Mann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rich_Mann)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/65 "2010-03-03T10:12:52Z")
re: Jacob = Evil When he was going around touching unsuspecting losties, he stopped Sayid on a street corner allowing Nadia to cross the street, unescorted. She died. I don’t see the timing of this as coincidence, but rather as an intentional, mean trick on Jacob’s part to get rid of an influence that would have kept Sayid from returning to the Island. (My apologies if this was covered in the thread for that episode.) Also, remember that Widmore was the leader of the Others before Linus. The changing of the guard was, apparently, a bitter moment for them. Years later Widmore kills (by proxy) Linus’s daughter and Linus vows, and later tries, to kill Widmore’s. They both carried out numerous other atrocities, and lied and manipulated everyone they came into contact with. This does not seem like the kind of behavior I would expect from the seconds-in-command of a benevolent being. How could Jacob have chosen such people and let them run amok like they have if he is truly good. I don’t see these as things beyond his control, I think that most of what happens as a result of his actions represents his desired outcome. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Q](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/898d66/32.png) [@Johnny\_Q](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Q)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/66 "2010-03-03T10:20:09Z")
Did Sayid really take Smokey up on his offer of the return of Zombie Girlfriend or did he do it because of the whole torture and trying to kill him thing? Aided by the Infection, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/67 "2010-03-03T11:27:46Z")
> [@well\_he\_s\_back](#): > > yeah, who knows what that f-ing alt timeline means. > > anyway, how do we know Jacob okayed the Dharma massacree? Smocke still seems more evil to me. Because Richard was there when it happened and speaking for Jacob–Whitmore (who was in charge of The Others at the time) had been attacking the Dharma folks for years before settling in on that fragile truce. If Jacob didn’t object to any of this via Richard (or directly–Whitmore was probably in direct contact with Jacob: the “Ben never talked to Jacob” thing has been played as an exception, not the rule) then Jacob at minimum passively allowed it. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/68 "2010-03-03T11:31:12Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > If anyone’s expandable, it’s Hurley. > . Disagree–not only is he the only character who’s not a dick to some degree at least, he’s the only 100% honest character (and the viewers need one): He has no agendas. Plus he’s the “normal” character for the viewers to contrast to the weirdness. Frank kinda fills the same role but he hasn’t had enough screentime (hell, he hasn’t even had a flashback episode) for the viewers to really know him. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/69 "2010-03-03T12:48:03Z")
Might I say… whoosh? (Read what I actually wrote. Hint: I was referring to Hurley’s waistline) ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/70 "2010-03-03T12:54:36Z")
It looks like the Others are basically gone now. The survivors are now Esau’s people, and Richard and Ben are on their own. I wonder if Esau is going to have the ex-Others kill the survivors of the Ajira flight. Remember when he tried to get Richard to do that? ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/71 "2010-03-03T14:06:25Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Might I say… whoosh? > > (Read what I actually wrote. Hint: I was referring to Hurley’s waistline) :smack: Heh–ok–you snuck that one completely by me. My excuse is that it was like 4:30 in the morning when I read it. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/72 "2010-03-03T14:26:01Z")
> [@Mehitabel](#): > > Yeah, where was Sawyer during the great Temple invasion? He’s not crazy or possessed (yet) but I thought he’d be there at the end when the Others followed Smokey (or whatever they were doing, they are so sheeplike) Sawyer would be there in the crowd. > > Ilana kicks ass even though she’s late. > > I guess the parallel with Sayid is that he’s evil on the Island and was pretty evil in the Sideways-verse–I mean, he did kill Keamy after the guy offered to release the debt on his brother. Now, I wouldn’t have believed Keamy either, but there had to be another way. Absolutely not. Once things had gone that far (as far as stabbing the brother, really), someone was going to die. Once Sayid had Keamy at his mercy he had to kill him - anything that allowed Keamy to walk away involved another set of goons and some dead Iraqis. Now, was there some generic Lostiness when Sayid was all “Dude, why did you try to get two other people to kill me when you could do it yourself?” and Captain Ninja was all, “Let me tell you about how Jacob saved my son and trapped me on the island”. Admittedly the wife was jabbering, but I think my summary was right. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/73 "2010-03-03T14:35:43Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > \ > > Now, was there some generic Lostiness when Sayid was all “Dude, why did you try to get two other people to kill me when you could do it yourself?” and Captain Ninja was all, “Let me tell you about how Jacob saved my son and trapped me on the island”. Admittedly the wife was jabbering, but I think my summary was right. > > -Joe That made _me_ want to drown Dogen, quite frankly. It’s like answering the question “hey, what did you have for breakfast” with “well, forty years ago, I used to play left field.” ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/74 "2010-03-03T14:39:04Z")
> [@Johnny\_Q](#): > > Did Sayid really take Smokey up on his offer of the return of Zombie Girlfriend or did he do it because of the whole torture and trying to kill him thing? Aided by the Infection, of course. Well, think about it this Way. Two groups. One group tries to kill you twice, tortures you, and doesn’t give you a straight answer about a damned thing. The other group let’s you go after attempting to murder their leader for no reason and warns the people in his way that they can leave or die. I know which side would look better to me. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/75 "2010-03-03T14:57:54Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > That made _me_ want to drown Dogen, quite frankly. It’s like answering the question “hey, what did you have for breakfast” with “well, forty years ago, I used to play left field.” I interpreted it as “I killed my son, so I try not to kill anyone else, as atonement.” I think it was supposed to be a parallel with Sayid’s attempts at atonement in the sideways universe. So, to me at least, it didn’t seem like so much of a non sequitur. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/76 "2010-03-03T15:15:37Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > I interpreted it as “I killed my son, so I try not to kill anyone else, as atonement.” I think it was supposed to be a parallel with Sayid’s attempts at atonement in the sideways universe. > > So, to me at least, it didn’t seem like so much of a non sequitur. I’m atoning for accidentally killing someone, so I just intentionally get other people to do it. Shit reason, if that’s what it was supposed to be rather than typical Lost answerless answers. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/77 "2010-03-03T15:30:28Z")
You know what really bugs me? Those ABC commercials for ‘Lost’ which say ‘the time for questions is over.’ The hell. I’ve sort of lost faith in a good closing of this series. Which kind of makes me sad, but I’m still enjoying many aspects of the show, esp. the acting. ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/78 "2010-03-03T15:50:58Z")
The (somewhat) radical LOST theory of Bubbadog [ul] [li]MIB needed to get into the temple to do something important (reset a control or remove all of the humans?) [/li][li] The island is really a ship. Not a space ship but a temporal ship that can travel between realities.[/li][li] MIB is the\*\* good guy\*\*[/li][li] Jacob is the bad guy[/li][li] Both are original travelers on the ship[/li][li] “Life” shouldn’t be on the ship because it distorts the reality of the surrounding environment. Not in old times not so much, but with today’s travel capabilities the impact is global.[/li][li] MIB knows that if he “resets” the island it will kill everybody but they will still exist in their proper time line. Their present lives are unimportant because they exist in a spoiled time line.[/li][li] Jacob was messing with realities in order to study people. My guess is that this was a great infraction of whatever rules or directives he was supposed to follow as a temporal traveler. Possibly Temporal Rule #1 – you can travel between realities and times but you can’t alter them more than what is necessary to observe them. [/li][li] MIB is on a quest to halt Jacob’s renegade actions and set things back to “right”.[/li][li] Jacob said “They’re coming” before died because he realized that Lana was capable of stopping or killing MIB (we may find out why the Lana team has code words and other knowledge later) and that would leave the island under control of neither of the two travelers. Though Jacob knew he was going against the rules by interfering with people, the thought of the island under control of anyone but he or MIB was horrifying.[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/79 "2010-03-03T16:19:29Z")
I was surprised to hear Miles’ dialog regarding Claire, because I would’ve sworn that Claire had abandoned Turniphead and disappeared long (like 2 seasons) prior to the ship appearing, and Miles/Faraday/Redhead arriving. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/80 "2010-03-03T16:32:09Z")
Nope–he was the “witness” to her disappearance. Sawyer threatens Miles if he does _anything_ in the nigh. He, Sawyer and Claire were sleeping in the forest. Claire wanders off (and I still say the “fertility injections” have something to do with her new evilness) as Miles watches. Sawyer wakes up the next morning, wonders where Claire is, Miles tells him she wandered off, Sawyer sez “Why didn’t you say something?” and Miles shrugs and says “Cause you said not to do anything.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026.md?page=5)