# LOST 6.6 "Sundown" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 2, 2010, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026 "2010-03-02T18:47:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Shark\_Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f04885/32.png) [@Shark\_Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shark_Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/101 "2010-03-03T20:55:42Z")
> [@Skott](#): > > Speaking of Losties, when he saw the baseball fall, I assumed that it reminded him of his deal with Jacob, and that there’s a rule that they’re not allowed to kill Candidates outright. Which is why Dogen attempted to have Jack or the MiB do it instead. And which would explain why Ben and Widmore aren’t allowed to kill each other. And possibly why Ben was so incredulous when Alex was killed: She could be considered a candidate as either a Linus or a Rousseau, doubly protected by this assumed rule. But this implies that the candidates know “the rules,” which apparently our current candidates do not. Unless you mean that Leaders like Dogen, Ben, and Widmore have the rules explained to them, but the lower-ranking candidates are left in the dark. Dogen tries to have Jack kill Sayid. So candidates can kill other candidates? That fails so Dogen sends Sayid out to kill Smocke, knowing that he’d fail and piss off Smocke enough to kill Sayid, but that would mean he’s forgetting (or doesn’t know?) that Smocke can’t kill Sayid because he’s a candidate? The mind, it boggles. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/102 "2010-03-03T21:11:59Z")
So, do you think Alan Sepinwall has it? I know some of us have said the same. > [@](#): > > But the more we see of them, the stronger my feeling grows that we’re seeing the series’ epilogue in advance. It may not turn out this way, but at the moment it seems the flash-sideways are where the castaways wind up after the war with Smokey ends, as some kind of reward from one of the celestial powers going to war over the island, be it Jacob or Smokey. Smokey does seem awfully confident in the prospect of letting Sayid see Nadia again, after all [Original post here.](http://sepinwall.blogspot.com/2010/03/lost-sundown-history-of-violence.html) I think that might just be it. ---
**Author:** ![Arcite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/67e7ee/32.png) [@Arcite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arcite)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/103 "2010-03-03T21:12:09Z")
> [@Shark\_Sandwich](#): > > But this implies that the candidates know “the rules,” which apparently our current candidates do not. Unless you mean that Leaders like Dogen, Ben, and Widmore have the rules explained to them, but the lower-ranking candidates are left in the dark. > > Dogen tries to have Jack kill Sayid. So candidates can kill other candidates? That fails so Dogen sends Sayid out to kill Smocke, knowing that he’d fail and piss off Smocke enough to kill Sayid, but that would mean he’s forgetting (or doesn’t know?) that Smocke can’t kill Sayid because he’s a candidate? > > The mind, it boggles. Not that this really resolves any of the complexities you’ve pointed out, but whenever various characters have mentioned these “rules” that prevent certain people from killing certain other people, it’s always sounded to me not that they aren’t _allowed_ to, but that they physically _can’t_; that is, they’re all subject to some cosmic force that would prevent it. The island would stop them if they tried, the way it stopped Michael from committing suicide. The same kind of thing would have happened if Ben had tried to kill Widmore, or the MiB had struck at Jacob, or Dogen had actually tried to plunge the knife into Sayid when he had him pinned in this episode. ---
**Author:** ![Plynck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Plynck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plynck)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/104 "2010-03-03T21:21:09Z")
> [@well\_he\_s\_back](#): > > You know what really bugs me? Those ABC commercials for ‘Lost’ which say ‘the time for questions is over.’ The hell. I’ve sort of lost faith in a good closing of this series. Which kind of makes me sad, but I’m still enjoying many aspects of the show, esp. the acting. Be careful what you wish for. We could have all the questions answered exhaustively, completely and ridiculously in a two hour expository finale (à la X-Files), and then wish the series had ended two years earlier. Or we can just relax and realize that… _“It’s complicated.”_ ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/105 "2010-03-03T21:22:50Z")
> [@HoboStew](#): > > With regards to the Jacob being evil thing, I think the point they are trying to make is that good & evil are opposite sides of the same coin, mirror images, etc. Thats what Dogen meant with that whole “Jacob made me this offer, I bet he made the same to you” thing. Jacob & MiB both seem to be doing the same stuff, **just wearing different color shirts**.[snip] [Bolding mine] Actually they are wearing different people. And that must be important the way that they scrutinize and grade the qualities of the people they interact with and inhabit. One possibility is that neither Jacob nor MIB have full control over the decisions they make while wearing the bodies of humans. Maybe that says something about their abilities to succeed with their plans. They still maintain their own goals and plans but are forced to enact them through the moral filters of their hosts. Maybe that’s why MIB still retains a lot of the persona and mannerisms of Locke. Had he been wearing Jack or Sawyer then Sayid wouldn’t have survived his assassination attempt. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/106 "2010-03-03T21:56:20Z")
Yeah, the rules are really confusing. Sometimes the Island is done with someone and you can die, and sometimes it isn’t, and you can’t. The rules DO sound like some unbreakable cosmic pact… and yet it really does seem like Unlocke COULD kill candidates, but fears the consequences, not that he actually physically cannot. In Season 5, I assumed Ben and Widmore couldn’t kill each other because they had some special time-travel based knowledge of the future that meant it didn’t happen, and so couldn’t. I’m not sure now. ---
**Author:** ![fiddlesticks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddlesticks/32/18129_2.png) [@fiddlesticks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fiddlesticks)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/107 "2010-03-03T22:02:09Z")
> [@RainGrowsBrite](#): > > Can you fill me in on where Smokey got the name ‘Esua’? Was this ever said on the actual show, or is this a bible reference that was coined on the internet? It’s a Biblical reference. Jacob and Esau were the fraternal twin sons of Isaac. Esau was the oldest and thus entitled to Isaac’s wealth when Isaac died, but sold his birthright to Jacob for a bowl of lentils. Jacob’s descendants become the Chosen People, Esau’s got squat. The Man in Black has never revealed his name. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/108 "2010-03-03T22:35:14Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > The role of Vincent has been cast! Wait - what happened to the original doggie-actor that played Vincent? He’s okay, isn’t he? Good doggie. Good doggie. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/109 "2010-03-03T22:37:43Z")
> [@fiddlesticks](#): > > The Man in Black has never revealed his name. I kind of like “The Man Outside”, actually. It’s got style. ---
**Author:** ![GilaB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@GilaB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GilaB)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/110 "2010-03-03T23:26:14Z")
> [@BubbaDog](#): > > [Bolding mine] Actually they are wearing different people. And that must be important the way that they scrutinize and grade the qualities of the people they interact with and inhabit. > > One possibility is that neither Jacob nor MIB have full control over the decisions they make while wearing the bodies of humans. When have we ever seen Jacob ‘wearing’ someone else’s body/identity? For what it’s worth, the producers have said that Jacob has never taken on anyone else’s form, so I don’t think he’s being influenced that way. ---
**Author:** ![HoboStew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f17d59/32.png) [@HoboStew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoboStew)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/111 "2010-03-03T23:39:51Z")
> [@GilaB](#): > > When have we ever seen Jacob ‘wearing’ someone else’s body/identity? > For what it’s worth, the producers have said that Jacob has never taken on anyone else’s form, so I don’t think he’s being influenced that way. Right, and also when dead Jacob appears to Hurley (and invisible to everyone else, apparently) he has the same form as we’ve always seen him. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/112 "2010-03-03T23:55:27Z")
Mr. Excellent: like Walt, he probably got too old to play the part convincingly. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/113 "2010-03-04T00:36:39Z")
My day-late-and-ninety-eight-cents-short-two-cents: The blonde kid that Smocke was chasing looks way more like Claire to me than resembling of the adult Jacob, but the age is all wrong for any timeline. I think it is more likely to be Aaron somehow than a young Jacob. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/114 "2010-03-04T01:51:21Z")
Well, it sucks to be Sayid in any time line. Bummer. Interesting that Smokey killed all the Others who stayed in the Temple, but not the Losties (plus Ben and Juliet). I wonder if that was meant to be “on purpose”. Did Jack and Sayid kind of look at each other for the briefest of moments in the flash sideways? I think the writers are still screwing with us about whether or not there is any recognition between these guys in the ATL. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/115 "2010-03-04T01:55:29Z")
I dunno about how “intelligent” smokie is in smokie form. He certainly may well have barreled right through Kate had she not jumped in the pit. I think Smocke kinda loses his mind a bit when he’s chit-chit-chitting around. ---
**Author:** ![Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a9a28c/32.png) [@Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oslo_Ostragoth)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/116 "2010-03-04T02:50:02Z")
Humorous recap [here](http://videogum.com/149302/lost-s06e06-the-bad-sayid-get-it-you-get-it/tv/recaps/). Portrait of the Losties _a la_ The Simpsons [here](http://reporter.blogs.com/.a/6a00d83451d69069e201310f4e4ab1970c). ETA: stupid fingers ---
**Author:** ![GilaB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@GilaB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GilaB)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/117 "2010-03-04T03:03:39Z")
**Apos** and **Mr. Excellent** - Vincent has actually been played by two different dogs already. The producers have actually said that he’s definitely going to make it to the end, the only ‘character’ for whom this has been confirmed. ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/118 "2010-03-04T03:08:23Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > I dunno about how “intelligent” smokie is in smokie form. He certainly may well have barreled right through Kate had she not jumped in the pit. I think Smocke kinda loses his mind a bit when he’s chit-chit-chitting around. I’m guessing he is still just as intelligent- the day Jacob died in the statue, he killed that Other who made an ash circle by pausing, thinking and problem solving- smashing the ceiling so it fell on him. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/119 "2010-03-04T03:40:24Z")
That may show some sort of tactical knowledge, maybe (can’t be positive it meant to do that), but it seems to be rage personified in a lot of ways. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026/120 "2010-03-04T09:20:07Z")
I like the fact that the smoke monster, though we didn’t know that’s what it was at the time, appeared in the very first episode of _Lost_, and turns out to be the key to everything. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-6-6-sundown/531026.md?page=7)