# LOST 8.9 "Ab Aeterno" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 23, 2010, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504 "2010-03-23T17:47:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![ekweizn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7c8e57/32.png) [@ekweizn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekweizn)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/141 "2010-03-24T21:02:55Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > Was the knife that Richard tried to kill Jacob with the same one that Dogen gave Sayid? I’m wondering how he ended up getting it. Maybe MiB tried the same thing with Dogen, but Dogen held on to the knife. It looks like the same knife. Jacob disarmed Ricardo, so it’s possible that Dogen got it directly from him although it doesn’t explain why the instructions for using the knife were the same in both cases (i.e. the stab him in the chest before he can say anything). ---
**Author:** ![canadiankorean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/2bfe46/32.png) [@canadiankorean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/canadiankorean)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/142 "2010-03-24T21:03:29Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Good point. Damnit ;). Is Kate a candidate? ---
**Author:** ![Arcite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/67e7ee/32.png) [@Arcite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arcite)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/143 "2010-03-24T21:12:05Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > So, let’s say that the island is the cork that’s keeping all of the bad stuff in as Jacob alleges. > > Now, we have the ATL where the cork is presumably gone. > > Does that mean that the ATL is what would happen if the cork had been released? Everyone keeps talking as though things are great in the ATL. Right from the beginning, I’ve gotten a sense of foreboding from the ATL. There’s somehow a tension in every flash-sideways, like something really bad is about to happen but we don’t quite get there. I’ve been suspecting that something catastrophically bad will happen in the ATL (or that things are already really bad, but we haven’t been shown in what way yet.) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Evil\_Prince\_Zorte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@The\_Evil\_Prince\_Zorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Evil_Prince_Zorte)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/144 "2010-03-24T21:14:48Z")
Dogen probably heard the story from Richard, and gave Sayid the same instructions for his own amusement. The point after all, was to get Sayid killed for the attempt, without any expectation that the knife would actually kill MiB. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/145 "2010-03-24T21:15:32Z")
> [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > Gee. How nice that that he considers wives and children as fungible goods. > Being a female, I’ve always hated that about Job. God and Satan got to have their little game, and as you say, Job at least gets everything back and a bit more. But the wife and original children? Well, I guess _they_ don’t count at all. :mad: Jobs wife was not killed during the bet, just his children, and besides you can always make new ones as he did. ---
**Author:** ![Chimpsmack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Chimpsmack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimpsmack)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/146 "2010-03-24T21:18:22Z")
> [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > Gee. How nice that that he considers wives and children as fungible goods. > Being a female, I’ve always hated that about Job. God and Satan got to have their little game, and as you say, Job at least gets everything back and a bit more. But the wife and original children? Well, I guess _they_ don’t count at all. :mad: i think it’s pretty common these days for people to look at the story of Job and wonder what the wife and kids did to deserve their fate. but in the context of the story, the wife and children are not innocents. IIRC the children are implied to be wicked and unrighteous, and the wife encourages Job to curse God. despite this, Job’s wife actually survives the story unharmed and unpunished. although i suppose you could argue the ‘blessing’ of bearing 10 additional replacement children is punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/147 "2010-03-24T22:09:01Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > And by “math” I think he means that the late 1800’s weren’t 400 years ago. Unless you’re a time traveler. > > GET HIM! > > -Joe ☹ I phail. ☹ 😉 ---
**Author:** ![RainGrowsBrite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@RainGrowsBrite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RainGrowsBrite)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/148 "2010-03-24T23:16:44Z")
I loved the episode… and I expected not to because I’ve been looking forward to the highly anticipated “Richard” episode for some time now. I definitely figured I would be dissapointed. Not so! Anyhow… I really like the MIB actor. I hope to see him a bit more. Also… when are Boone and Shannon supposed to come back? Cant wait for that! ---
**Author:** ![Dilton\_Doiley\_Philosopher\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f1d935/32.png) [@Dilton\_Doiley\_Philosopher\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dilton_Doiley_Philosopher_King)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/149 "2010-03-25T00:44:39Z")
> [@belladonna](#): > > So does this mean we go back to assuming that Sayid could have killed Smocke if he’d jabbed him before he spoke? Jacob spoke to Ben (“What about you?”) and Ben was still able to kill Jacob. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/150 "2010-03-25T01:13:07Z")
> [@RainGrowsBrite](#): > > Also… when are Boone and Shannon supposed to come back? Cant wait for that! Not sure, though Boone was in the first episode this season. ---
**Author:** ![middleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@middleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/middleman)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/151 "2010-03-25T01:31:46Z")
> [@Sir\_Prize](#): > > If you were stranded on island with weapons and slaves in chains, and if you were a slaver, would you kill them all off? Makes no sense. Did anyone else get the idea that he had a touch of the madness? > [@jackdavinci](#): > > It was pretty far off in the distance and merely a sailing vessel. The implication being that a storm developed at night and pushed the ship to shore. Time is very relative on this island! It may have been night on the ship and day on the island. > [@Algernon](#): > > I’m beginning to think this “good vs evil” aspect is a red herring. I’m actually starting to think that the whole Dharma Initiative has been a red herring. It doesn’t seem central to the main plot. I wonder if they were just pot smoking hippies who happened upon the wrong pocket of unique properties. > [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > Also, I think that last scene explains what Smokey’s real plan is. He thought killing Jacob would uncork the bottle, but he’s still stuck there. So he’s gonna try to destroy the island. My wife instantly said the same thing despite being FOREVER confused. She said she may not understand who Martin Keamy is, but she understands overly obvious symbolism… > [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > Guess I’m in the minority, but I was pretty disappointed. I was hoping for some big revelation(s), but basically the episode just fleshed out things I’d already figured out. And I think they could have done without Richard’s whole backstory - it’s enough for me to know that he came on a slave ship; I don’t need the dying wife/killing the doctor melodrama. That way they could have cut out the whole “Richard’s dilemma” angle (which didn’t really ring true to me anyway) and given us a glimpse at Richard in the ATL. I actually was hoping the Richard episode would last through multiple time periods. I wanted to see the other side of the Dharma wars. But as I said, that might be a red herring… > [@ekweizn](#): > > It looks like the same knife. Jacob disarmed Ricardo, so it’s possible that Dogen got it directly from him although it doesn’t explain why the instructions for using the knife were the same in both cases (i.e. the stab him in the chest before he can say anything). > [@The\_Evil\_Prince\_Zorte](#): > > Dogen probably heard the story from Richard, and gave Sayid the same instructions for his own amusement. The point after all, was to get Sayid killed for the attempt, without any expectation that the knife would actually kill MiB. I would think Jacob had Dogen use the same line. Kind of the same as giving him the white rock. > [@Dilton\_Doiley\_Philosopher\_King](#): > > Jacob spoke to Ben (“What about you?”) and Ben was still able to kill Jacob. I think Jacob was always able to be killed because he had a body. MIB seems more ephemeral. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/152 "2010-03-25T01:52:01Z")
> [@middleman](#): > > I’m actually starting to think that the whole Dharma Initiative has been a red herring. It doesn’t seem central to the main plot. I wonder if they were just pot smoking hippies who happened upon the wrong pocket of unique properties. I agree with this. Although, depending on how you look at causation, if Dharma hadn’t been there, then there’d be no button to not push, and no 815 crash into the island, etc. Ben seems to have served a similar role. ---
**Author:** ![Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Springtime_for_Spacers)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/153 "2010-03-25T02:48:57Z")
> [@middleman](#): > > Did anyone else get the idea that he had a touch of the madness? > l. Yes that’s just what I thought. The explanation for the killings made no sense. The island is a jungle, not the proverbial desert island, it has resources aplenty. ---
**Author:** ![Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Springtime_for_Spacers)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/154 "2010-03-25T02:51:22Z")
Did anyone catch the name of Ricardo’s village? I thought the doctor said Socorro, but can’t find anywhere of that name. I have an obscure need to find it’s location and see just where it is half a day’s ride _from_. ---
**Author:** ![Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Springtime_for_Spacers)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/155 "2010-03-25T03:20:14Z")
> [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](#): > > Did anyone catch the name of Ricardo’s village? I thought the doctor said Socorro, but can’t find anywhere of that name. I have an obscure need to find it’s location and see just where it is half a day’s ride _from_. Missed the edit window so I fell compelled to point out that I do know I shoulf have said _its location._ ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/156 "2010-03-25T03:26:18Z")
[El Socorro](http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&q=el+socorro,+tenerife&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=El+Socorro,+Arafo,+Province+of+Santa+Cruz+de+Tenerife,+Canary+Islands,+Spain&ll=28.319796,-16.334953&spn=0.086589,0.209255&z=13) ---
**Author:** ![oliversarmy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/eb8c5e/32.png) [@oliversarmy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oliversarmy)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/157 "2010-03-25T04:47:45Z")
Maybe I missed other comments before, but I’m really starting to think that Jacob and MIB are angels. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/158 "2010-03-25T08:12:18Z")
I’m thinking it’s something much more basic than that. Most cultures have some sort of myth about the good/evil duality or opposing forces. God/Satan, Caine and Abel, Romulus and Remus, Yin and Yang. There’s a strong Egyptian theme to the Island. Hieroglyphs, statues, architecture. In Egyptian Mythology, dualism was a common theme. See if this sounds kind of familiar: > [@](#): > > This dualistic struggle between good and evil is exhibited between the sun god Re, symbolizing life and truth, and his antagonist snake god Apep, Greek Apophis, in the ancient Egyptian religion. Apep, a monster living in perpetual darkness, perpetually tried stopping Re’s barque on its nightly journey through the underworld. During this struggle between light and darkness, the gigantic serpent is wounded by knives and spears hurled by Re’s divine entourage. In legend, Apep was the personification of darkness, evil, and chaos. Occasionally the deity was victorious for a short duration, but in the end Re triumphed. Apep was slain by Re who cut up his body and burned it. It is observed that both deities have the same divine nature but have opposite objectives. Wounded by knives and spears from his ‘divine entourage’? I’m not saying that Jacob/Esau are Re/Apep, but all of these old duality myths that exist in most religions have elements very similar to what’s going on on the island. My current theory is that Jacon/Esau are _very_ old creatures, and possibly the inspiration for some of the duality myths. They may in fact be Romulus and Remus, Caine and Abel, and all the rest of them. Not literally, but they may have inspired these legends by being in contact with those civilizations. But there’s probably even more. I remember when the series first started, the producers promised that the plot was not supernatural, that everything was explainable, at least in a far-fetched way, by science or at least by natural forces. So perhaps we’ll find out that the island’s mysterious magnetic source is something like the power source from a very ancient crashed spaceship, and Esau and Jacob are the survivors, and they’re immortal creatures, and basically they’ve been amusing themselves by setting up games and dicking around with humanity for a long time. But that’s probably going a bit too far with the speculation…I’m kind of nuts that way. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/159 "2010-03-25T08:20:35Z")
> [@Mehitabel](#): > > However, wasn’t the ship’s last voyage in [1845?](http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Black_rock)What’s the deal with this story starting in 1867? My theory: to appease all the nitpickers pointing out how Alfred Nobel didn’t invent dynamite until… 1867 (well, that’s when he patented it). > [@Merijeek](#): > > Good idea. I wonder how he’s going to do that? Jam a wrench in the Donkey Wheel? Or set off an atomic bomb… ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/160 "2010-03-25T10:29:45Z")
I thought it was funny when one of the prisoners on the Black Rock said, “I see the devil! The Devil Guards the island!” Well, yes, the head of Taweret DOES look a bit menacing, but Wired! magazine and JJ Abrams confirmed that Taweret is what the statue depicts. She was a crazed mom when she married Apep. Goes with Flocke’s claim about having a mean mommy. PLUS, by breaking the statue of the Egyptian goddess of fertility and birth, no more babies happen on the island. (!) I’m guessing that 1) Jacob and MIB are THE SAME PERSON and 2) Jacob/MIB is the egyptian god Set. I’m guessing they’re the same person due to the relentless competition they insist on having with each other. If they are NOT the same person, they’re a pair of beings that are certainly not omnipotent or omniscient. Jacob calls the Black Rock to the island letting not only the people make their own choices, but he lets MIB kill and test the new arrivals. Still, I’m absolutely sticking with Jacob is a bad guy, most likely as evil as MIB appears to be. Just as Jacob arrives and touches those he wishes to come to the island at unsure and weak times of the person’s life, MIB, as the smoke, tests to see who is vulnerable (Richard) and chooses to manipulate them to his own wishes. So, MIB ain’t a goodie either. Hell, if Jacob and MIB are NOT the same being-- two sides of a being-- maybe they’re genies! Maybe that’s why they can’t bring back the dead, or absolve sin! Ah, I’m still waiting for Vincent to show up and bark in English what the whole thing’s about, maybe at a surprise Dharma Initiative Reunion picnic. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504.md?page=9)