# LOST 8.9 "Ab Aeterno" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 23, 2010, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504 "2010-03-23T17:47:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Springtime_for_Spacers)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/161 "2010-03-25T11:04:26Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > [El Socorro](http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&q=el+socorro,+tenerife&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=El+Socorro,+Arafo,+Province+of+Santa+Cruz+de+Tenerife,+Canary+Islands,+Spain&ll=28.319796,-16.334953&spn=0.086589,0.209255&z=13) Thanks ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/162 "2010-03-25T13:36:01Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Well, yes, the head of Taweret DOES look a bit menacing, but Wired! magazine and JJ Abrams confirmed that Taweret is what the statue depicts. She was a crazed mom when she married Apep. Goes with Flocke’s claim about having a mean mommy. PLUS, by breaking the statue of the Egyptian goddess of fertility and birth, no more babies happen on the island. (!) I got all excited about that last part as that makes so much sense. Unfortunately Charlotte, for instance, was born on the island sometime in the 1960s-70s when her parents were there for the DI. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/163 "2010-03-25T13:50:09Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > I got all excited about that last part as that makes so much sense. Unfortunately Charlotte, for instance, was born on the island sometime in the 1960s-70s when her parents were there for the DI. Doesn’t mean she was conceived there, though. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![canadiankorean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/2bfe46/32.png) [@canadiankorean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/canadiankorean)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/164 "2010-03-25T13:58:58Z")
> [@middleman](#): > > My wife instantly said the same thing despite being FOREVER confused. She said she may not understand who Martin Keamy is, but she understands overly obvious symbolism… > . But the cork is the island. Not the bottle. Perhaps MiB wants to destroy time and thus escape the container without going through the plug(island) ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/165 "2010-03-25T14:13:47Z")
> [@middleman](#): > > I’m actually starting to think that the whole Dharma Initiative has been a red herring. It doesn’t seem central to the main plot. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I remember when the series first started, the producers promised that the plot was not supernatural, that everything was explainable, at least in a far-fetched way, by science or at least by natural forces. Yeah, at this point I’m convinced they have just been making shit up all along, without even a general idea of where the series was going. I know they crowed about Adam & Eve from the beginning, about how it would tie into the eventual ending and thus prove they always knew the main story from the beginning. But I think that’s bullshit; I think they put Adam & Eve in there with the intention to make something up at the end that made everything look planned out. I call bullshit. How much of this series was devoted to the Dharma Initiative? Now that the Dharma Initiative has been rendered wholly irrelevant, what the fuck? Was that just 5 seasons of filler? Maybe their original idea was the Dharma Initiative, and that’s what they meant in the beginning by non-supernatural explanations. But if so, they completely bailed on that, invalidating the idea that they had it all planned out from the beginning. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/166 "2010-03-25T14:35:58Z")
I am basically with you, **Ellis Dee**. I think they threw a lot of stuff into the first season or two just to make the island cool and mysterious (polar bears! smoke monster! freaky “Others”!) and are now furiously retconning in order to come out with a half-assed ending that kind of matches up with all the first-season stuff without _completely_ pissing off the fans. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/167 "2010-03-25T15:00:53Z")
> [@Edward\_The\_Head](#): > > Sayid has killed people, some he was probably regretful about. Jack has most likely had someone die on the table and I’m sure he regrets that. Sawyer killed the guy in Australia, but almost hesitated and was torn up about it, at least for a bit. Both Sawyer and Jack get credit for killing the Agent who was on Kate’s case. Sawyer shot him to put him out of his misery (and…um…oops…shot him through the lung, not the brain), and he died while under Jack’s care, so… > [@](#): > > That only leaves Hurley and Locke as people we don’t know, or I don’t remember if, they’ve killed someone. There’s also Jin, but we still don’t know, even though they said Sun last night, who threw the guy out the window. Hurley might get credit for the guy who threw himself off the building where Hurley’s accountant was, as well as the people working in the Mr. Cluck’s when the meteor hit, as well as his Grandpa–IIRC, he was warned not to use the numbers and he did anyway, which makes him at least sorta guilty by the screwball logic often used on LOST. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/168 "2010-03-25T15:10:46Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Doesn’t mean she was conceived there, though. > > -Joe My mistake, she wasn’t even born there, she was born in Essex. However, according to Lostpedia: [Ethan Rom is currently the last known person to have been conceived & born on the Island in July of 1977.](http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Pregnancy) ---
**Author:** ![Shoeless](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shoeless/32/7099_2.png) [@Shoeless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shoeless)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/169 "2010-03-25T15:13:50Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > My theory: to appease all the nitpickers pointing out how Alfred Nobel didn’t invent dynamite until… 1867 (well, that’s when he patented it). We don’t know for sure that the dynamite was originally on the Black Rock, do we? Maybe the Army stashed it there when they were on the island in the fifties. ---
**Author:** ![Algernon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a183cd/32.png) [@Algernon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algernon)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/170 "2010-03-25T15:36:14Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > My current theory is that Jacon/Esau are _very_ old creatures, and possibly the inspiration for some of the duality myths. They may in fact be Romulus and Remus, Caine and Abel, and all the rest of them. Not literally, but they may have inspired these legends by being in contact with those civilizations. > > But there’s probably even more. I remember when the series first started, the producers promised that the plot was not supernatural, that everything was explainable, at least in a far-fetched way, by science or at least by natural forces. So perhaps we’ll find out that the island’s mysterious magnetic source is something like the power source from a very ancient crashed spaceship, and Esau and Jacob are the survivors, and they’re immortal creatures, and basically they’ve been amusing themselves by setting up games and dicking around with humanity for a long time. This has been my favorite theory for quite some time. But you’ve expressed it far better than I ever have. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/171 "2010-03-25T15:36:56Z")
That actually makes more sense since if dynamite was invented/patented in 1867, it would have taken a few years at least for it to become known and commercially available. Hey–quick question: In like episode 3, Helen was a phone-sex chick who’d pretty clearly not met Locke. In a later flashback (the one where Locke’s dad shoves him out of the window), Locke and Helen are dating (and living together?). But on the phone, she says something about not being allowed to “meet customers”. What? ---
**Author:** ![middleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@middleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/middleman)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/172 "2010-03-25T15:46:55Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > I am basically with you, **Ellis Dee**. I think they threw a lot of stuff into the first season or two just to make the island cool and mysterious (polar bears! smoke monster! freaky “Others”!) and are now furiously retconning in order to come out with a half-assed ending that kind of matches up with all the first-season stuff without _completely_ pissing off the fans. I wouldn’t go so far as to agree with this, despite thinking many of the plotlines were “treadmills” because the show was popular and did not have a finite end date. However, I think the Jacob/MIB good vs. evil plot was devised at some level from the beginning. Adam and Eve are defense exhibit one, of course. But also consider: - White Rocks and Black Rocks in their hands - Locke’s two colored eyes (black and white) in a dream sequence - The emphasis on backgammon and the duality of black vs. white. - The four toed statue in one of the early seasons I’m not sure how specific they had it, or if any changes were made along the way. But it seems they had a good idea where it was going. > [@Fenris](#): > > Hey–quick question: > In like episode 3, Helen was a phone-sex chick who’d pretty clearly not met Locke. In a later flashback (the one where Locke’s dad shoves him out of the window), Locke and Helen are dating (and living together?). But on the phone, she says something about not being allowed to “meet customers”. What? The Dope theory has long been that this scene took place after Helen dumped Locke for being so fixated on the anger with his father and Locke simply called this woman Helen because he missed the real Helen. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/173 "2010-03-25T15:52:09Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Yeah, at this point I’m convinced they have just been making shit up all along, without even a general idea of where the series was going. I know they crowed about Adam & Eve from the beginning, about how it would tie into the eventual ending and thus prove they always knew the main story from the beginning. But I think that’s bullshit; I think they put Adam & Eve in there with the intention to make something up at the end that made everything look planned out. I’ve posted this before, but I might as well post it again… I hate to keep bringing this up, but the people holding out hope for a non-supernatural ending astound me. There was an invisible tree crushing monster in the pilot. The show used supernatural elements to explain its mysteries from the very beginning. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/174 "2010-03-25T16:00:04Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > I’ve posted this before, but I might as well post it again… > > I hate to keep bringing this up, but the people holding out hope for a non-supernatural ending astound me. There was an invisible tree crushing monster in the pilot. The show used supernatural elements to explain its mysteries from the very beginning. And I can’t find anything where Lindelof and Cuse say it won’t be supernatural. The only things I’ve seen them specifically deny is “They’re all dead” and “It’s aliens.” ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/175 "2010-03-25T16:14:34Z")
Edward the Head: > [@](#): > > That only leaves Hurley and Locke as people we don’t know, or I don’t remember if, they’ve killed someone. Hurley was possibly responsible for the death of 23 (?) people in a deck-collapse accident. It was guilt over his feeling responsible for this that sent him to the mental asylum. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/176 "2010-03-25T16:24:18Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > I’ve posted this before, but I might as well post it again… > > I hate to keep bringing this up, but the people holding out hope for a non-supernatural ending astound me. There was an invisible tree crushing monster in the pilot. The show used supernatural elements to explain its mysteries from the very beginning. I don’t think anyone is holding out hope for a non-supernatural ending. I certainly don’t; I gave up on that when we first saw the smoke monster. My point was that based on the early interviews, I think the writers originally envisioned the Dharma Initiative as the main answer. After several seasons of treading water, they gave up on the Dharma Initiative and went in another direction. I am forced to conclude that any resolutions we get are going to be retcons. As in, they put weirdness in the first season without having any real concept of how to explain it. They just wanted to heighten the suspense with weirdness and planned on making up an answer later on if the series caught on. Explaining it in this final season isn’t evidence they knew what they were doing all along, as it could just as easily be a bunch of retcons. For example, remember in the first season one of the cool weird things that loomed large was the whispering, which will likely go unanswered. (Was it explained in a meaningful way that I forgot?) ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/177 "2010-03-25T16:36:26Z")
I think it’s great they have been able to be flexible. They may have originally seen Dharma as the answer, but realized the potential for something more deep, and were able to execute it without creating major holes. I’m not sure why its so often assumed to be a bad thing that the whole story of the series wasn’t completely laid out before they began production ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/178 "2010-03-25T16:42:49Z")
It would be bad if they wasted multiple seasons with irrelevant Dharma crap. That would basically amount to Nikki & Paulo writ large. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/179 "2010-03-25T17:08:26Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > It would be bad if they wasted multiple seasons with irrelevant Dharma crap. That would basically amount to Nikki & Paulo writ large. Just because you don’t like it doesn’t make it wrong, and you seem to be arguing against pretty standard mystery story presentation and resolution. It’s all about the narrative onion peeling. Characters ente mysterious situation. Layer 1 - weird crap happens, reader wonders why, protagonists discover source of weirdness (tropical polar bears, hatch, shitloafs of guns) - Dharma Initiative. Layer 2 - characters learn more about Dharma Initiative, reader wonders why DI would do the stuff they did and where they went. Readers learn a bit about the hostiles/others and the purpose of the DI’s presence on the island. Layer 3 - characters start to learn about Others, reader wonders why they do what they do, who is in charge (Ben, or Jacob, and does Jacob even exist,?), and why are they so paranoid? I could go on but there’s a limit to what I’m willing to type on an iPhone. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504/180 "2010-03-25T17:23:17Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > It would be bad if they wasted multiple seasons with irrelevant Dharma crap. That would basically amount to Nikki & Paulo writ large. Dharma were crucial to the plot, they just weren’t crucial to the mystery. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-8-9-ab-aeterno/533504.md?page=10)