# Lost Gospel, the Judas Gospel? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 7, 2006, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-gospel-the-judas-gospel/351650 "2006-04-07T00:01:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-gospel-the-judas-gospel/351650/1 "2006-04-07T00:01:09Z")
Are we gonna add a new book to the Bible? [http://www9.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/index.html](http://www9.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/index.html) The National Geographic Society has been part of an international effort, in collaboration with the Maecenas Foundation for Ancient Art and the Waitt Institute for Historical Discovery, to authenticate, conserve, and translate a 66-page codex, which contains a text called James (also known as First Apocalypse of James), the Letter of Peter to Philip, a fragment of a text that scholars are provisionally calling Book of Allogenes, and the only known surviving copy of the Gospel of Judas. Or is this just flim-flam to sell ad space? Or? ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-gospel-the-judas-gospel/351650/2 "2006-04-07T00:08:58Z")
Don’t get so excited. It’s merely another lost Gnostic Gospel. I seriously doubt anybody wants to open up a theological can of worms by adding this. Here’s a list of related Wikipedia Articles, but remember that Wiki articles, _especially_ the religious ones, must be taken with a grain of salt. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=gnostic+gospel&fulltext=Search](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=gnostic+gospel&fulltext=Search) ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-gospel-the-judas-gospel/351650/3 "2006-04-07T00:51:18Z")
What he said. There are several other “gospels” that already exist. These documents are very historically important and will certainly have an impact on how we view the Bible but I doubt any church or group will embrace them as scripture. IMHO they are just as valuable as any of the books of the Bible but hey, that’s just me. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-gospel-the-judas-gospel/351650/4 "2006-04-07T00:53:56Z")
From what i’ve heard, the “big story” is that it suggests Jesus asked, or indirectly influenced, Judas to betray him; so that events could, well, ensue. It’s a suggestion i’ve heard before, though, so even if it’s deemed reliable by scholars and theologians (or whatever the process might be) it’s not as groundbreaking as people would suggest. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-gospel-the-judas-gospel/351650/5 "2006-04-07T01:10:10Z")
It kinda makes _The Last Temptation of Christ_ a less controversial movie. I don’t remember if the movie showed Judas working under the direction of Jesus, but it certainly showed him in a more influential role than the standard Gospels do. But I wouldn’t look for any mainstream Christian religion to adopt it as canon any time soon! ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-gospel-the-judas-gospel/351650/6 "2006-04-07T01:20:49Z")
I’m not sure how you would go about judging the reliability of one gospel over another. Even if the Judas gospel was really old (as seems to be the case) it could still be a true story handed down after attempts by the devotees of the other disciples to suppress it. We’ll never really know. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-gospel-the-judas-gospel/351650/7 "2006-04-07T01:30:28Z")
Heck, and it isn’t even like it brings up anything specially new, the speculation that maybe Judas was indeed in on the Plan all along and doing exactly what JC intended has been banging around for just as long as Christianity. BTW, it was known for a long time than among the non-canonical scripture there was something called the “Gospel of Judas” (Irenaeus of Lyon makes a reference to that in the late 2d. century). Just that for a long time nobody could get their hands on a copy. In any case, like **John Mace** I wouldn’t look for any even-slightly-off-mainstream Christian church to add ANY new book to the canon any time in the next few centuries. On top of it that, if there is anything at all Gnostic about it, its chances of redirecting any mainstream dogma drop to a snowflake’s in you-know-where. Gnosticism was one of the earliest (if not the first) declared heresies. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-gospel-the-judas-gospel/351650/8 "2006-04-07T02:53:07Z")
What’s odd is, the people who are usually quickest to embrace the Gnostic gospels are the people who’d be most aghast if they knew what the Gnostics stood for. Hint: the Gnostics weren’t hippies, they weren’t feminists, and they weren’t believers in “Do yer own thang!” ---
**Author:** ![Rube\_E.Tewesday](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f0a364/32.png) [@Rube\_E.Tewesday](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rube_E.Tewesday)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-gospel-the-judas-gospel/351650/9 "2006-04-07T02:55:38Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > What’s odd is, the people who are usually quickest to embrace the Gnostic gospels are the people who’d be most aghast if they knew what the Gnostics stood for. > > Hint: the Gnostics weren’t hippies, they weren’t feminists, and they weren’t believers in “Do yer own thang!” Uh huh. Like the Essenes, the more you learn about them, the gladder you are they didn’t win. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-gospel-the-judas-gospel/351650/10 "2006-04-07T06:17:29Z")
I don’t much like what mainstream Chrisitianity stands for either. Does that mean that “who managed to kill each other off the best” is a good guide of who was correct? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-gospel-the-judas-gospel/351650/11 "2006-04-07T11:04:30Z")
If Christians accept the gospel of Judas or not, they still owe him for their salvation; if Jesus wasn’t betrayed there may have been no crucifiction, thus no death or ressurection. I do not remember the verse or chapter but the New Testament states that Judas was pre- ordained to turn Jesus in. Christianity was always devided,it wasn’t until after 300 years that what books were inspired (or what was not) was decided. Many manuscripts were burned or destroyed,so it is just a matter of faith as to what really went on in the first few centuries of Christianity. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-gospel-the-judas-gospel/351650/12 "2006-04-07T12:34:44Z")
> [@Rube E. Tewesday](#): > > Uh huh. Like the Essenes, the more you learn about them, the gladder you are they didn’t win. PLease elaborate. since the winners went on to persecute torture and murder those who didn’t agree, what was so much worse about the Gnostics or the Essenes? Perhaps **astorian** could help. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-gospel-the-judas-gospel/351650/13 "2006-04-07T12:41:43Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > I don’t much like what mainstream Chrisitianity stands for either. Does that mean that “who managed to kill each other off the best” is a good guide of who was correct? Not really. Just that there is a high likelihood that the sort of Utopian New Age Christianity (UNAC) that so many people seem to want to somehow “debunk” orthodoxy, either did not really exist and is a construct of _their_ c.2000AD interpretation of various tendencies and schools within Christianity, or at most is a pick-and-choose of one or more of several such tendencies and schools, but not more or better supported by “original sources” (such as they are) than is orthodoxy. Some seekers of UNAC will reach for some mainstream-persecuted religio-cultural phenomenon of the past, such as the Gnostics, Essenes or Cathars for validation, when that doctrine may contain elements not really particularly suitable to what they set out to promote. “Mainstream” is the descendant of some of those schools that adapted and survived in “The World” and acquired a layering-on of other non-JC-derived philosophical and cultural elements from the various civilizations through which they moved; not not some conspiratorial “hijack” of “real” Christianity. Even the “official” NT lets through that although the original church in Jerusalem organized itself along some sort of “communal” model, within the decade there were theological and leadership disputes and splinter sects and simony and all sorts of less-than-happy-shiny things going on. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-gospel-the-judas-gospel/351650/14 "2006-04-07T12:48:45Z")
There’s a new book by Biblical scholar Bart Ehrman called Misquoting Jesus. It is about the history of our current version if the Bible, the NT in particular. Very informative on how the Bible changed in the first few centuries and how the books were selected. There’s a thread in Cafe society about it [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=366118) Ehrman also has a book called The Lost Gospels which I will be reading, about the many other books that were considered sacred in early Christianity and then discarded as theological winners became the official church and persecuted the other groups declaring them heretical. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-gospel-the-judas-gospel/351650/15 "2006-04-07T13:23:32Z")
As others have noted, there are dozens of these early gnostic-type gospels. Most were “purged” by the redactors of the current gospels (along with their sects). It is probably authentic, just not a huge story - though it could shed light on the early period of Christianity, when it was still in a creative ferment. The Catholic Encyclopedia states that there were at least fifty “gospels” of which four are canonical, and the following are those gospels of which fragments have actually survived: > [@](#): > > The name gospel, as designating a written account of Christ’s words and deeds, has been, and is still, applied to a large number of narratives connected with Christ’s life, which circulated both before and after the composition of our Third Gospel (cf. Luke 1:1-4). The titles of some fifty such works have come down to us, a fact which shows the intense interest which centred, at an early date, in the Person and work of Christ. it is only, however, in connexion with twenty of these “gospels” that some information has been preserved. Their names, as given by Harnack (Chronologie, I, 589 sqq.), are as follows: — > > 1-4. The Canonical Gospels. > 5. The Gospel according to the Hebrews. > 6. The Gospel of Peter. > 7. The Gospel according to the Egyptians > 8. The Gospel of Matthias. > 9. The Gospel of Philip. > 10. The Gospel of Thomas. > 11. The Proto-Evangelium of James. > 12. The Gospel of Nicodemus (Acta Pilati). > 13.The Gospel of the Twelve Apostles. > 14.The Gospel of Basilides. > 15.The Gospel of Valentinus. > 16.The Gospel of Marcion. > 17.The Gospel of Eve. > 18.The Gospel of Judas. > 19.The writing Genna Marias. > 20.The Gospel Teleioseos. Note that the “Gospel of Judas” is one of them. [http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06655b.htm](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06655b.htm) Question: I don’t know all that much about the Gnostics, but I believe that they were really big on the notion that the creator of this world was basically evil, and consequently that material things (such as the human body) were evil (though souls were good) - and thus that sex, which perpetuates the body, was evil. Do things like priestly celebacy in Catholicism ultimately derive from Gnostic influence? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-gospel-the-judas-gospel/351650/16 "2006-04-07T13:26:45Z")
I read once that there’s a sect in the Middle East that considers Judas a saint, but I can’t find a cite. Or maybe that was Pilate, not Judas. Does anybody know? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-gospel-the-judas-gospel/351650/17 "2006-04-07T13:28:47Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I read once that there’s a sect in the Middle East that considers Judas a saint, but I can’t find a cite. > > Or maybe that was Pilate, not Judas. > > Does anybody know? I think the Ethiopian Church regards pilate as a saint. No shout outs for Judas as far as I know. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-gospel-the-judas-gospel/351650/18 "2006-04-07T13:32:19Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I read once that there’s a sect in the Middle East that considers Judas a saint, but I can’t find a cite. > > Or maybe that was Pilate, not Judas. > > Does anybody know? I believe it was a Gnostic sect known as the “Canaanites”, but can’t find a good reference. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-gospel-the-judas-gospel/351650/19 "2006-04-07T13:39:01Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I believe it was a Gnostic sect known as the “Canaanites”, but can’t find a good reference. “Cainites” (from [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=366253)). ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-gospel-the-judas-gospel/351650/20 "2006-04-07T13:44:17Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I believe it was a Gnostic sect known as the “Canaanites”, but can’t find a good reference. It was the [Cainites](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cainites). They probably wrote the Gospel of Judas. They believed that the OT God was evil and that the way to salvation was to [break every OT law](http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9018563). They also venerated traditional Biblical “villains” such as Cain (where they got their name), Esau, the Canaanites and of course, Judas Iscariot. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-gospel-the-judas-gospel/351650.md?page=2)