# Lost Gospel, the Judas Gospel? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 7, 2006, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-gospel-the-judas-gospel/351650 "2006-04-07T00:01:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2006, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-gospel-the-judas-gospel/351650/61 "2006-04-09T10:49:54Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It doesn’t? The Church of AD1500 was NOT the same Church that “won” in AD200. Not even close. > > So, that was just a random gratitous slam vs the Christian faith? Did you bother to do what I suggested and go back and read both the post I responded to and my response? {which prompted your post}If you did then why is it you think the time frame is relevant? Stating a fact is not a gratuitous slam, nor was it a random act. I was making a specific point which you apparently missed. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2006, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-gospel-the-judas-gospel/351650/62 "2006-04-09T10:56:06Z")
I believe the Idea of celibacy came from Paul, who said it was better for a man not to touch woman. also because it was said Jesus never married. Just as some believe it is better to remain a virgin. In our century this seems not to be the case. In the later years of the Church it was a matter of passing on wealth to one’s heirs. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2006, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-gospel-the-judas-gospel/351650/63 "2006-04-09T14:38:32Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > In the later years of the Church it was a matter of passing on wealth to one’s heirs. True–sorta–for a brief period in the Middle Ages. In the ninth through eleventh centuries, local _civil_ authorities who had been involved in the selections of local bishops began handing out dioceses and parishes to people as political favors and the priests and bishops to whom these churches had been “given” began to treat them as personal property and pass the down as inheritances. Since the churches had never been the properties of the local lords, to begin with, [Pope Gregory VII](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=5924372#post5924372) brought that practice to a screeching halt around 1073. That phenomenon was pretty much a Germanic/Frankish thing (although it occurred elsewhere) that lasted fewer than 300 years, but it made a very strong impression on the hierarchy of subsequent generations. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2006, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-gospel-the-judas-gospel/351650/64 "2006-04-09T18:05:44Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The priests of some pre-Christian pagan cults used to practice self-castration. The priests of Cybele (and her son Attis) did. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybele](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybele) Don’t know of any others, until we get up to 18th-Century Russian Skoptzy ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skoptsi](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skoptsi)) and, of course, the Heaven’s Gate cult ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven’s\_Gate\_(cult)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven%27s_Gate_%28cult%29)). Of course, there was Origen, a Christian who castrated himself by way of keeping his vow of chastity. But the general consensus in the Church was that this was cheating. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2006, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-gospel-the-judas-gospel/351650/65 "2006-04-09T18:07:50Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > I believe the Idea of celibacy came from Paul, who said it was better for a man not to touch woman. also because it was said Jesus never married. Actually the Bible does not **say** Jesus never married; it just fails to mention any wife of his. But let’s not be getting into **that**. . . ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2006, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-gospel-the-judas-gospel/351650/66 "2006-04-09T18:10:49Z")
[QUOTE=Nic2004] I think Judas should be the Patron Saint of Snitches [QUOTE] Or perhaps it might be better to say, of whistleblowers. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2006, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-gospel-the-judas-gospel/351650/67 "2006-04-09T21:58:57Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The priests of Cybele (and her son Attis) did. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybele](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybele) > > Don’t know of any others, until we get up to 18th-Century Russian Skoptzy ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skoptsi](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skoptsi)) and, of course, the Heaven’s Gate cult ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven’s\_Gate\_(cult)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven%27s_Gate_%28cult%29)). > > Of course, there was Origen, a Christian who castrated himself by way of keeping his vow of chastity. But the general consensus in the Church was that this was cheating. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen) The Mithradites did it too. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2006, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-gospel-the-judas-gospel/351650/68 "2006-04-09T23:44:56Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The Mithradites did it too. Cite? I thought I knew a lot about the cult of Mithras (only men allowed to join; use of a sacrificial bull in initiation, at the initiate’s expense, limited it to the rich; etc.), but I never heard of that. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-gospel-the-judas-gospel/351650/69 "2006-04-10T02:43:54Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I thought I knew a lot about the cult of Mithras I think I’ll be using that as a blurb to explain the appeal of the SDMB for years. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-gospel-the-judas-gospel/351650/70 "2006-04-10T13:32:43Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > I believe the Idea of celibacy came from Paul, who said it was better for a man not to touch woman. Did Paul say that? Honest question. Paul did say that the head of a church should be a married man with children, because how can you run a church if ya can’t even run a household? I thought the celibacy stuff came later than Paul. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-gospel-the-judas-gospel/351650/71 "2006-04-10T13:50:38Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Did Paul say that? Honest question. 1 Corinthians 7: > [@](#): > > 1Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry.[a] 2But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. 3The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4The wife’s body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband’s body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. 5Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that. > 8Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion. Also Jesus himself, Matthew 9: > [@](#): > > 3Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?” > > 4"Haven’t you read," he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’\*\*? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.” > > 7"Why then," they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?” > > 8Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.” > > 10The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.” > > 11Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage[c]because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.” ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-gospel-the-judas-gospel/351650/72 "2006-04-10T17:35:44Z")
**Brainglutton** I’ve seen a range of translations of those passages. For the first these go from “than to be inflamed with passion.” to “than to burn.”. Considering the context and other statments on sex and marriage, I find the second more likely. That he is saying ‘All sex is lesser and fallen. You should be celibate if you can. If you cannot be celibate, remember that sex outside of marriage is a sin while sex with your spouse is allowed to those too weak to be celibate.’ The translation of Matthew 9 doesn’t agree with any I have ever seen before. I’ve always seen is “and others have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. Let he who can receive this, receive it.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-gospel-the-judas-gospel/351650/73 "2006-04-10T18:03:43Z")
Proper translation of the disputed line in Matthew 19:12: _…kai | eisin | eunouchoi | hoitinos | eunouchisan | heautous | dia | ten | basileian| ton | ouranon…_ “…and | there are | eunuchs | who | have castrated [made eunuchs] | themselves | for | the | kingdom | [of] the | heaven…” After a little parsing for coherence: “…and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs [lit. “castrated themselves”] for the kingdom of heaven.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-gospel-the-judas-gospel/351650/74 "2006-04-10T18:47:44Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > The translation of Matthew 9 doesn’t agree with any I have ever seen before. Both passages I quoted are New International Version, from here: [http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/index.php?Version=31&search=Matthew](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/index.php?Version=31&search=Matthew) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-gospel-the-judas-gospel/351650/75 "2006-04-10T18:48:46Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > After a little parsing for coherence: > > “…and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs [lit. “castrated themselves”] for the kingdom of heaven.” But Origen read that a bit too literally. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-gospel-the-judas-gospel/351650.md?page=3)