# Lost Ice Age Civilizations...possible? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 24, 2017, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-ice-age-civilizations-possible/792051 "2017-07-24T19:00:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2017, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-ice-age-civilizations-possible/792051/61 "2017-07-30T21:10:37Z")
Remembered some history of Jericho and went back to it. From the Wikipedia page; By about 9400 BC, the town had grown to more than 70 modest dwellings.[citation needed] The Pre-Pottery Neolithic A phase at Tell es-Sultan (ca. 8350 – 7370 BC)[dubious – discuss] is sometimes called Sultanian. The site is a 40,000 square metres (430,000 sq ft) settlement surrounded by a massive stone wall over 3.6 metres (12 ft) high and 1.8 metres (5 ft 11 in) wide at the base (see Wall of Jericho), inside of which stood a stone tower (see Tower of Jericho), over 3.6 metres (12 ft) high, containing an internal staircase with 22 stone steps and placed in the centre of the west side of the tell. This tower and the even older ones excavated at Tell Qaramel in Syria are the oldest ever to be discovered. The wall may have served as a defence against flood-water, with the tower used for ceremonial purposes. The wall and tower were built during the Pre-Pottery Neolithic A (PPNA) period around 8000 BCE. For the tower, carbon dates published in 1981 and 1983 indicate that it was built around 8300 BC and stayed in use until ca. 7800 BC. The wall and tower would have taken a hundred men more than a hundred days to construct, thus suggesting some kind of social organization. The town contained round mud-brick houses, yet no street planning. The identity and number of the inhabitants of Jericho during the PPNA period is still under debate, with estimates going as high as 2,000–3,000, and as low as 200–300. It is known that this population had domesticated emmer wheat, barley and pulses and hunted wild animals. So this is actually before our 60 meter sea rise (7,000 to 6,000 BC). If a structure was built like that there, then it is almost certain that one or more equivalent structures were built in places that are now underwater. Especially when perusing this list; Several cities listed here, which are over 5000 years old, popularly claim to be “the oldest city in the world”. Athens, Greece (5th–4th millennium BC) Byblos, Lebanon (3000 BC) Damascus, Syria (3rd millennium BC) Luxor, Egypt (3200 BC) Jericho, Palestine (3000 BC or earlier) Beirut, Lebanon (3000 BC) Mundigak, now Kandahar, Afghanistan (3000 BCE)[citation needed] ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2017, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-ice-age-civilizations-possible/792051/62 "2017-07-30T21:19:42Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > **Chimera** (or anyone), have you seen a LGM coastline map with a current coastline overlay? I’m coming up dry with my searches. [![](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b7/bf/2f/b7bf2f0382c20e435fa51c384da0de0a.gif) ](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b7/bf/2f/b7bf2f0382c20e435fa51c384da0de0a.gif) That’s a map of what the world would have looked like at glacial maximum (@ 22,000 years ago) with a 120 meter drop in sea levels from current. But otherwise, no, I can’t seem to find a lot of images there. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2017, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-ice-age-civilizations-possible/792051/63 "2017-07-30T21:25:57Z")
Oh, and a great 1 hour lecture that someone posted elsewhere, which is outside of the time frame indicated, was about the collapse of the ancient civilizations and the ‘sea peoples’ at circa 1200 BC. They went back and re-tested the ivory recovered from that period and found that 90% of it was Hippopotamus ivory. Then the guy notes that someone said “but there are no hippos in that area”. He smiled and said “Now”. 🆒 [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/bRcu-ysocX4/maxresdefault.jpg "1177 BC: The Year Civilization Collapsed (Eric Cline, PhD)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRcu-ysocX4) ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2017, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-ice-age-civilizations-possible/792051/64 "2017-07-30T21:34:59Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Well, the bible flood still remains a myth, it is clear that even if there is an understanding that after the last ice age a big chunk of territory was flooded then the tale was not needed. Animals then did not need to travel to the middle east to get to the ark and neolithic people that had already developed agriculture in Egypt did not miss much. > > Of course, this attempt at making the bible be more than a good book of moral myths misses here that most serious scholars do point that the flood took place around 3000-2500 BC. Right when the Egyptians were already into Pharaohs and up to the Old Kingdom. One also has to point out that then Egyptians did not miss much too. Sea levels were much lower 1,000’s of years ago. Stuff that was built is now under water, that is not a myth. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2017, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-ice-age-civilizations-possible/792051/65 "2017-07-30T21:40:20Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > Sea levels were much lower 1,000’s of years ago. Stuff that was built is now under water, that is not a myth. You will have to notice that you did not counter anything of what I and many other historians and archaeologists noted about Egypt. That the sea levels were much lower was already acknowledged, the bible tale of the flood covering everything and with animals going to just one spot remains a myth. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-ice-age-civilizations-possible/792051/66 "2017-07-31T06:10:12Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > If a structure was built like that there, then it is almost certain that one or more equivalent structures were built in places that are now underwater. It is not “almost certain”, . It wouldn’t be _surprising_ if there were, but that’s not the same thing. It’s not like the coast off the Levant hasn’t been studied. But [villages](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlit_Yam) are not the same order as Jericho. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-ice-age-civilizations-possible/792051/67 "2017-07-31T07:32:15Z")
Sometimes beautiful and extensive underwater remains are found from the ancient period, like this for instance [The lost underwater city of Heracleion](http://twistedsifter.com/2013/06/lost-egyptian-city-heracleion-found-underwater-after-1200-years/) but they are much later than the Ice Age, and later even than the imaginary Biblical flood. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-ice-age-civilizations-possible/792051/68 "2017-07-31T08:45:48Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > They went back and re-tested the ivory recovered from that period and found that 90% of it was Hippopotamus ivory. Then the guy notes that someone said “but there are no hippos in that area”. He smiled and said “Now”. Yep. [Here’s](https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/7f/27/c9/7f27c9ca4504186a70e26ba349982fa1--hippopotamus-antiquities.jpg) [why](https://cowofgold.wikispaces.com/file/view/05_meruka_hippos.jpg/131964895/476x266/05_meruka_hippos.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-ice-age-civilizations-possible/792051/69 "2017-07-31T11:07:00Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > You will have to notice that you did not counter anything of what I and many other historians and archaeologists noted about Egypt. > > That the sea levels were much lower was already acknowledged, the bible tale of the flood covering everything and with animals going to just one spot remains a myth. Okay, why does nearly every culture have a tradition of a global flood? The bible has been proven accurate on buried cites, dried out rivers and such. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-ice-age-civilizations-possible/792051/70 "2017-07-31T11:39:50Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > Okay, why does nearly every culture have a tradition of a global flood? Do they, though? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-ice-age-civilizations-possible/792051/71 "2017-07-31T12:40:24Z")
It is a myth that _every_ culture has these stories. But again, it is factual that the sea levels rose 120 meters from LGM to present, in the spurts I listed above. People would still have myths and stories from that time. Hell, the Australian Aborigines have many stories and myths that go back that far even now; The Port Phillip myth (recorded as told to Robert Russell in 1850), describing Port Phillip Bay as once dry land, and the course of the Yarra River being once different, following what was then Carrum Carrum swamp. The Great Barrier Reef coastline myth (told to Dixon) in Yarrabah, just south of Cairns, telling of a past coastline (since flooded) which stood at the edge of the current Great Barrier Reef, and naming places now completely submerged after the forest types and trees that once grew there. The Lake Eyre myths (recorded by J. W. Gregory in 1906), telling of the deserts of Central Australia as once having been fertile, well-watered plains, and the deserts around present Lake Eyre having been one continuous garden. This oral story matches geologists’ understanding that there was a wet phase to the early Holocene when the lake would have had permanent water. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-ice-age-civilizations-possible/792051/72 "2017-07-31T13:16:51Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > But again, it is factual that the sea levels rose 120 meters from LGM to present, in the spurts I listed above. People would still have myths and stories from that time. By this do you mean that some of the myths that persist today are based on memories of post-glacial sea-level rises? If that is the case, how do you propose to distinguish these from other, more recent floods? ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-ice-age-civilizations-possible/792051/73 "2017-07-31T13:26:13Z")
Addendum Having read the rest of your post, that seems reasonable. Maybe nothing much interesting happens down under. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-ice-age-civilizations-possible/792051/74 "2017-07-31T13:36:54Z")
Start with: Whose stories are they and where did those people come from? What is their particular flood story? It seems to me that stories of a world wide flood told 3,000 years ago by hill dwelling sheep herders may well be about their people intentionally packing up and moving to higher ground, but also flavored by ‘story telling’ so that it has lost it’s original details. After all, the grail myths aren’t really myths from the time of Christ, they’re based on stories and tales from cultures thousands of miles away and a thousand years later, but also typical of humans in trying to connect ourselves to powerful ancient cultures and artifacts. Like the Aztecs trying to connect their origins with the Toltecs, a powerful old and gone empire, when this is unlikely. The Noah story is about connecting their people to God and their myths as being their god’s chosen people. it is about God judging the world for its wickedness (a common theme in Judea-Christian mythos) and renewing it with a new pact, just as the Israelites origin story is coming out of slavery to a new pact with God. If you watch that one hour video above, he even notes that the Exodus may or may not have happened and that the Israelites may have risen from hill peoples right after the collapse of Egyptian control of the region and the Philistines (Phoenicians) moving into the area. So it is entirely possible (my words here) that they arose from ‘slavery in Egypt’ without even moving. They could have merely been highland tribes dominated by Egyptian control of their lands (in the same way the term ‘slavery’ is much abused these days), had their period in the wilderness (of chaos and the fall of empires), grown in numbers and then gone forth to conquer and rule their neighborhood for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-ice-age-civilizations-possible/792051/75 "2017-07-31T14:46:25Z")
It should be noted that while lots of cultures do have a flood myth (and this is to be expected, since local floods are a global phenomenon, like famine or fire, in a way volcanoes and earthquakes aren’t) they often [differ considerably in the details](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html). ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-ice-age-civilizations-possible/792051/76 "2017-07-31T14:52:34Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > the Philistines (Phoenicians) moving into the area. The Philistines and Phoenicians are not generally considered to be related. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-ice-age-civilizations-possible/792051/77 "2017-07-31T15:18:01Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The Philistines and Phoenicians are not generally considered to be related. Yeah! McCain is the later, but some Republicans do think that he is the former. …What? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-ice-age-civilizations-possible/792051/78 "2017-07-31T15:37:32Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The Philistines and Phoenicians are not generally considered to be related. Yeah, my error. Early morning fasting before medical appointment. No food, no sugar, no caffeine at that point. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-ice-age-civilizations-possible/792051/79 "2017-07-31T16:33:22Z")
There is a city called Helike which was submerged within historic times in Greece. There are the remains of a forest in Colwyn Bay from when land was more extensive. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > Well, the bible flood still remains a myth, it is clear that even if there is an understanding that after the last ice age a big chunk of territory was flooded then the tale was not needed. Animals then did not need to travel to the middle east to get to the ark and neolithic people that had already developed agriculture in Egypt did not miss much. > > Of course, this attempt at making the bible be more than a good book of moral myths misses here that most serious scholars do point that the flood took place around 3000-2500 BC. Right when the Egyptians were already into Pharaohs and up to the Old Kingdom. One also has to point out that then Egyptians did not miss much too. There is archaeological evidence of a rather impressive Mesopotamian flood in the period just before the al-Ubaid culture. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-ice-age-civilizations-possible/792051/80 "2017-07-31T21:56:54Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The Philistines and Phoenicians are not generally considered to be related. Indeed they are now thought to be Pelasgoi from eastern Crete. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-ice-age-civilizations-possible/792051.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-ice-age-civilizations-possible/792051.md?page=5)