# Lost Mafia/Werewolf/Psychopath **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [June 10, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337 "2009-06-10T15:43:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/421 "2009-06-16T16:04:52Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > I really doubt that BillMC would put himself at risk of being banned from the SDMB just to get a slight edge in a mafia game. **I did consider this.** Again, I just tossed it out, and I did consider it WIFOM at the end. I mean, it is interesting, that all of his time, is just on Mafia and a mastermind type game. ---
**Author:** ![Ichini\_Sanshigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/d9b06d/32.png) [@Ichini\_Sanshigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ichini_Sanshigo)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/422 "2009-06-16T16:23:25Z")
I get voted for not stating that my alignment and name match? I didn’t know we’d all agreed to do so, I didn’t have a chance to post yesterday, and I thought it was just to get a sampling for stat purposes, but fine, my alignment and name match. Now you have exactly no new information. I’m still against a mass name claim at this point in the game. It was a shit idea to begin with seeing as how scum would just lie; with Mahaloth’s change, they don’t even have to argue against a townie with the same name (if that happenstance were to pop up). It’s pretty interesting that being against a mass claim is portrayed as scummy, when no one except **pedescribe** was able to produce an instance of such benefitting town (one instance, due to that particular game’s mechanics). If anything, people who are gung-ho about it should be regarded with suspicion… (more to come) ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/423 "2009-06-16T16:24:46Z")
> [@BillMC](#): > > This is an interesting statement by **Jimmy**. > > If not asking it here, where are you suggesting questions be asked? > > This week is looking rather busy, so as per my [previous post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11241351&postcount=230) > > vote meeko **Ok. Let’s do this right this time.I’ve bleached, obviously, but I got the quote entire, correct?** I still think it was odd of BillMC to looking at Jimmy, but vote me. Re-reading that his week might be busy, does shine some light at the low post count. However, I tend to agree with Allwalker, Bill seems intent to railroad me here. -If he knew he would be away for a week, he could have made his posts more neutral than he did. I agree further with the one track mind V. lurker idea as well. Even if I wasn’t his target. I mean, Bill is gunning at me. I currently have no reason to think that he is town. If he can provide me with reasons to change my vote, I will consider that option then. But, I do know how easy of a bandwagon I can make myself at times. to me, it seems worst case senario, that Bill is using Crimson as precedent here. Best case scenario, he jumped on what he thought would be an EASY town lynch, and perhaps in this way, his low post count would be put to best use. I think we can agree that this plan backfired. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/424 "2009-06-16T16:29:35Z")
Ok, Meeko. You’ve presented your case. Now the thing to do is chill out and let other people catch up on their reading. And see what Bill has to say. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/425 "2009-06-16T16:32:11Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Ok, Meeko. You’ve presented your case. Now the thing to do is chill out and let other people catch up on their reading. And see what Bill has to say. To be fair, Bill DID state his posting would be low. I Got slammed for overlooking something Bill Said before. Should I not redeem myself, and at the same time, bring to light the fact that FWIW, Bill stated he would not be around this week? I think I have a solid case. Don’t get me wrong. But, we should not forget that Bill stated he would be low on posts. That would be fair of us to remember that. But, I see what you are saying here… Wait, what are you doing with that duct tape?! ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/426 "2009-06-16T16:43:38Z")
\*\*Quick reminder: Day One ends at Noon Wednesday, Eastern Time. Just about 23 hours or so to go, everyone. Updated Vote Count: Meeko(2) : Pedescribe, BillMC, Pedescribe(2) : Jimmy, CardinalFang Ichini(3): Chronos, Zeriel, AllWalker Imaginary Fiend(3): Tom Scud, Telcontar, Nanook Telcontar(1): ShadowFacts BillMC(1): Meeko\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/427 "2009-06-16T16:45:30Z")
For what it’s worth, my name and alignment appear to me (I’ve never seen the show) to be a very strong match, if anybody still cares. I just didn’t think it was that important previously. I’m glad to see the vote opening back up again, but I still don’t see any real strong suggestions that jump out at me (this includes my current **pedescribe** vote, but it’s still where I am). **Imaginary Fiend,** I’d like to hear your response to the current case being presented against you that you came out against the mass claim because you knew it would cook the others. I also am of the opinion that at this point in the game, considering what’s happened so far (and because I have remained convinced **Meeko** is town) a wise move by the scum would have been to remain relatively silent, so I think the list of lurkers up to this point is at least of some utility. Even though I seem to always think I’m posting more than I am. Also also, **Meeko,** , seriously, please. Enough with the Crimson talk. Nobody cares, I promise. Good presentation with **Bill** , but can we just let it die? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/428 "2009-06-16T16:46:58Z")
God damn it hurts not to edit that double comma. ---
**Author:** ![Ichini\_Sanshigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/d9b06d/32.png) [@Ichini\_Sanshigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ichini_Sanshigo)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/429 "2009-06-16T17:02:29Z")
I was originally going to Vote **Meeko** on the grounds that his initial vote for **pedescribe** was a work of contrivance if I ever saw one. He’s not the only n00bish poster here, and his unique “play style” is no excuse for noise and weak vote reasons. As another (less newbie) player, I’m disinclined to give the benefit of the doubt, especially when he persists in bad habits after being warned about them. That said, I find **Tom Scud** ’s enthusiasm about claiming even more troublesome. There’s his repeated implications that people _against_ an early mass claim are scummy, and there’s post 353/354 where he advocated waiting until ToMorrow for a claim (isn’t the second day kinda early?). Add to this that with **Mahaloth’s** changes, a mass claim would definitely hurt any power roles if they tried to obscure themselves by lying about their name. Whereas before, there was a chance that lying scum would be forced to risk duplicating a name, now that onus falls on secretive power roles. **Vote Tom Scud** ---
**Author:** ![Imaginary\_Fiend](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f6c823/32.png) [@Imaginary\_Fiend](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Imaginary_Fiend)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/430 "2009-06-16T17:38:52Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Incidentally, I feel bad about voting Meeko, as I’m fairly sure he’s town. But I don’t see the case against Pede, either. So, given the new information that name-claiming was in fact such a pro-town idea that Mahaloth had to change the game, I think it’s worth looking back at Imaginary Fiend’s responses: > > So in post #100, **Imaginary Fiend** comes out strongly against name-claiming, calling it “lining up likes lambs to the slaughter”. > > In 104, he asks if it’s scummy to even suggest the idea, and suggests that Meeko thinks it is, so that the suggestion isn’t his idea. > > 129: backs off on “scumminess” once called on it, makes the claim that if duplicate names are given, there is no objective way to resolve which is which, as if trading 1 for 1 town for scum isn’t a good trade at this point in the game. > > 135: In response to my pointing out that a 1 for 1 trade is good: > > 206: thanks storyteller for the LOST info dump. > > 338: says name and alignment match, says: > > Lacking anything else to go on, I’m going to > **unvote Meeko** > and > **vote Imaginary Fiend** Wow. I don’t think I’ve ever had my posts analyzed to such an extent before. I present to you the obvious counter to your statement that my actions were scummy: _I simply had a divergent opinion about the issue that was strong in the beginning and tempered over time._ Not all of us thought the name claim thing was a good idea. Barring your cutting and pasting of my most recent post on the topic, _I indicated even in the post that you quoted that I’m against the idea_, but that my heels have cooled and I was considering it. This goes back even to the post that **Nanook** characterizes in his later post as “ridiculously over the top hyperbole.” I had already apologized for my initial knee-jerk reaction (post 129) and indicated that I was more interested in a collegial discussion of the matter. My later posts would obviously be in line with that. What I think is guiding your suspicions of me is hindsight bias. Now that it seems that the name claim was possibly an exploit to the set-up, we can probably make a strong case for it having been a good idea. _But we didn’t know that at the time._ I guess I was wrong. I acted emotionally at the beginning and held true to my statement that I was going to consider the idea. And just because I haven’t taken up some of the other discussions doesn’t mean I haven’t been reading them. I just don’t feel as strongly about the recent topics dominating the discussion, several of which relate to a previous game in which I had no participation. This seems to be especially true when it comes to **Meeko** and **Pedescribe** who both seem to be somewhat in the same boat that I’m in: They draw suspicion not because they’re scum masterminds, but because they’re newbie players who make mistakes. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/431 "2009-06-16T17:40:35Z")
On Ichimi’s case: I think the fact that the moderator changed the game in the scum’s favor to avert a mass name claim pretty well establishes whether advocacy of that idea was pro-town or not. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/432 "2009-06-16T18:42:10Z")
> [@Ichini\_Sanshigo](#): > > I get voted for not stating that my alignment and name match? I didn’t know we’d all agreed to do so, I didn’t have a chance to post yesterday, and I thought it was just to get a sampling for stat purposes, but fine, my alignment and name match. Now you have exactly no new information. > > I’m still against a mass name claim at this point in the game. It was a shit idea to begin with seeing as how scum would just lie; with Mahaloth’s change, they don’t even have to argue against a townie with the same name (if that happenstance were to pop up). > > It’s pretty interesting that being against a mass claim is portrayed as scummy, when no one except **pedescribe** was able to produce an instance of such benefitting town (one instance, due to that particular game’s mechanics). If anything, people who are gung-ho about it should be regarded with suspicion… > > (more to come) Okay, once we stated discussing a mass name claim, **Mahaloth** changed the rules to preclude it, and he changed those rules in a way that clearly indicated that the rule change was because a mass name claim was game-breakingly good for Town–most likely, given the canon and the statements made that names were appropriate to roles, that the scum had super-scummy names. Therefore! **Pedescribe** ’s example applies (the particular game mechanics (in this case, color-appropriate character names) favor mass claims), and people who were wholeheartedly against mass claims must be looked at with suspicion, because the scum (knowing they had names that made them look super scummy) would be less likely to talk about names, and more likely to be gung-ho against a mass name claim. The relevant thing here for me is this–my one time as PFK, I discovered that lying about your name in a theme game is exceptionally nerve-wracking. You don’t know who can counter-claim you. You don’t know who might be a canon nazi and find something wrong with your name. You don’t know if you’re faking a convincing PM or not (this is what caught me right out.). Therefore, since I KNOW it’s a pain to fake name claim, to me it was self-evident that forcing the scum to do so would have been a good move for us. Obviously many of us (myself included) are decidedly against a mass name claim at this time, now that the rules have changed. I do agree with you on the irrelevance of whether or not someone said “my name and alignment agree”. Scum were going to have to make shit up anyway, if it came to a mass claim, so I don’t see how delaying a statement is particularly pro-scum–and it would have been relatively easy for even one of the people suggesting such a thing to be doing it to try to get sniffs on power roles or to determine an appropriate scum strategy in terms of dealing with their presumedly scummy scum names. As an aside, I voted you for flip-flopping on **Story** ’s list, not for refusing to give any data about your name/alignment match (hell, I’m on that particular boat with you). Your disdain for the clearly superior mass claim strategy was just icing on the cake. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/433 "2009-06-16T19:09:58Z")
\*\*PFK? \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/434 "2009-06-16T19:13:30Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > \*\*PFK? \*\* PFK = Plays For Keeps. A lot of the non-basic mafia games have PFKs, which are a subtype of “third party” roles. A PFK is a single player who has a separate win condition that precludes the normal town and scum victory conditions. In the game I was referring to, Idle’s Super Mario Mafia, I was Lakitu, a mad bomber type PFK who could tag someone every night, and if at any point all living players were tagged I won and everyone else died. Since it was my sole non-town experience in Mafia, despite my relatively large playing record, I reference it as my experience with how painful certain actions must be for scum–basically, if as a PFK the idea of something made me uncomfortable, I like anything that’ll force the scum to do that thing. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/435 "2009-06-16T19:43:32Z")
> [@](#): > > I do agree with you on the irrelevance of whether or not someone said “my name and alignment agree”. Scum were going to have to make shit up anyway, if it came to a mass claim, so I don’t see how delaying a statement is particularly pro-scum–and it would have been relatively easy for even one of the people suggesting such a thing to be doing it to try to get sniffs on power roles or to determine an appropriate scum strategy in terms of dealing with their presumedly scummy scum names. As I see it: A mass name-claim would have hurt the Scum, so they didn’t want to do anything that would make the mass name-claim more likely. The more people said that their alignments matched their name, the more likely we would be to go for a mass name-claim, so the Scum didn’t want to say that their names matched. On the other hand, if a small number of people said that their names _didn’t_ match their roles, then that small group of people would look suspicious, so the Scum didn’t want to say that their names didn’t match, either. If they couldn’t say yes and couldn’t say no, they were left saying nothing. As with almost everything in Mafia, this isn’t foolproof, of course: Some Scum might have been pushing for a mass claim, in the hopes that something would change to save them (as indeed happened), or that they could guess unused names, or that they could bluff their way through a name duplication. It’s still, I think, a valid and constructive observation. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/436 "2009-06-16T19:48:57Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > As with almost everything in Mafia, this isn’t foolproof, of course: Some Scum might have been pushing for a mass claim, in the hopes that something would change to save them (as indeed happened), or that they could guess unused names, or that they could bluff their way through a name duplication. It’s still, I think, a valid and constructive observation. Furthermore, once the bandwagon was obviously rolling, they’d want to hop on before they were too obviously out of step. So I’d give the early claims a bit more weight than later ones. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/437 "2009-06-16T20:04:23Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Furthermore, once the bandwagon was obviously rolling, they’d want to hop on before they were too obviously out of step. So I’d give the early claims a bit more weight than later ones. I admit that part of the reason I feel the way I do is that I was out on a canoe the whole weekend when this was going down, which resulted in my name being on the “somewhat more suspicious” list. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/438 "2009-06-16T20:07:45Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I admit that part of the reason I feel the way I do is that I was out on a canoe the whole weekend when this was going down, which resulted in my name being on the “somewhat more suspicious” list. 😃 Well, being on the same schedule as Oredigger meant that we both looked like we were trying to bandwagon Meeko, so I understand the feeling. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/439 "2009-06-16T20:29:02Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I admit that part of the reason I feel the way I do is that I was out on a canoe the whole weekend when this was going down, which resulted in my name being on the “somewhat more suspicious” list. 😃 Well, what canoe do? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/440 "2009-06-16T20:32:00Z")
If you use them like I do, they try to drown you, and nearly succeed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337.md?page=23)