# Lost Mafia/Werewolf/Psychopath **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [June 10, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337 "2009-06-10T15:43:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 38
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/741 "2009-06-23T20:21:57Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > Meeko - I say the following with some trepidation, but… > > I am having difficulty following your argument. This is not to say that I think it’s necessarily bad, but I do not understand it. Can I ask a favor? > > Would you sum up the “tell” you see in **cardinal** in one or two short sentences, without any metaphors or allusions or vague language? Town would not be able to state that name claims can still happen, without duplication. Scum could, especially given the fact that they have a back-up role, in case someone else claims the first role that scum has. [Or vice versa, obviously] This “fix” [We can all claim, and shoehorn it so that everyone _could_\* be unique.] to the issue on claiming is too convenient for me. (I believe Cardinal asked this earlier. This is what I mean with “Fix”) I don’t think town could have thought of it. [This is why I tried to explain my reasons with the entire PIN story.] I guess, you could say that the scummy dog barks. I can hear cardinal barking. Long story short : I currently think Cardinal is scum. I believe that he spent too much time making the scum end of this latest claim-can-still-happen attempt bullet proof, that he forgot to check it through “Does this pass as a townie saying this” test. - Halfbaked. \*Again I don’t think that everyone will play by the rules that Cardinal is apparently putting forth. Just because we all can do something, doesn’t mean we will. Cardinal’s plan actively asks for Town to put dis-information into the game. This is even more reason to suspect Cardinal. ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/742 "2009-06-23T20:40:59Z")
> [@AllWalker](#): > > Apart from these [two](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11267232&postcount=685) [posts](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11267228&postcount=684) just now, can you provide examples where **Chronos** and I have been friendly? As in, sufficiently so in order to justify a vote against me. Nope, I can’t. I’m the first to admit my case against you is weak. I had vague suspicious and I went looking for evidence. Classic confirmation bias. But like I said, I wanted to get my suspicions and a vote on record. In the meantime, however I’ve seen enough from **Chronos** , particularly in his defense from \*\*cardinal\_fang \*\*'s WoW, that I feel comfortable now with: \*\*unvote Allwalker vote Chronos\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/743 "2009-06-23T20:41:17Z")
The scum don’t have backup roles in case somebody claims the first role they were given. They have backup roles because ostensibly the first role they were given is identifiable as a scum role. The point of giving the scum aliases, **cardinal** (and all of us) is assuming, was that if we were to all claim, we’d all have non-duplicated, non-scummy names to claim. ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/744 "2009-06-23T20:42:37Z")
NETA: Ouch, sorry about the coding screwing up the carriage return there. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/745 "2009-06-23T20:46:27Z")
> [@](#): > > cardinal\_fang’s case against Chronos tracks my general hunch, and helped me pin down something that I had trouble with initially; it’s the way Chronos has remained visible, and gotten his votes on the record, without his visibility being in any way related to his vote or the reasons for his vote. Almost every post has furthered a discussion about something other than his vote. The reasons for my vote remain the same, and I haven’t seen anything to change it yet. I’ve said about all I have to say on the topic of why I think **Imaginary Fiend** is Scum. If any new evidence came up against IF, I’d be sure to point that out, of course, but he’s posted almost nothing toDay (only a [single substantive post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=11267984#post11267984)), so there isn’t really much to add there. Well, aside from pointing out the lack of activity, of course. I am growing increasingly suspicious of **storyteller** , **Jimmy Chitwood** , and **Zeriel** , as well, but since one of the reasons I’m suspicious of **Imaginary Fiend** is that they saved him late yesterDay, them becoming more suspect also serves to make him more suspect. I am, of course, considering a self-defense vote (you know, the old “I know I’m Town”… bit), but I’m not all that suspicious of **Oredigger** or **AllWalker** , either, and I’m not convinced it’s a good idea to vote for someone I’m not suspicious of, even to save my own skin. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/746 "2009-06-23T20:47:34Z")
**USCDiver** , could I ask you to be more specific? ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/747 "2009-06-23T20:57:31Z")
Um…I am not following the chronos case at all. It seems to me like a bunch of bungled accusations and personal vendettas. Divided we fall. Chronos? Consider: the oredigger case follows directly from the IF case. If you think IF is scum, then oredigger should be mightily suspicious as well. Ben? Same thing. As near as I can tell, you’re voting Zeriel for the same things that oredigger’s done. Except oredigger’s done more. It’s important to hit the guy who looks the most suspicious, even if it’s highly unoriginal. Tradition exists for a reason. USCDiver…could you elaborate? Why is Chronos automatically suspicious for defending himself? Zeriel. Could you just point to your case against allwalker? I think I missed it somewhere. Meeko? Look, I know how much you like the smoking guns. But most people don’t see the smoke like you do. Sometimes, you just have to go for the solid evidence, and wait to harp on the new case for another day. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/748 "2009-06-23T21:05:20Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > Meeko? Look, I know how much you like the smoking guns. But most people don’t see the smoke like you do. Sometimes, you just have to go for the solid evidence, and wait to harp on the new case for another day. Storyteller asked me to clarify what I said, andI understood what he meant. I got to post the explanation he wanted, and also tie up a few loose ends that cardinal asked. I would like to think that I am done talking on my case for Cardinal. I might be alone, but at least I am done arguing it. Mafia isn’t really a game for ADHD people, is it? ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/749 "2009-06-23T21:11:11Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > Storyteller asked me to clarify what I said, andI understood what he meant. I got to post the explanation he wanted, and also tie up a few loose ends that cardinal asked. > > I would like to think that I am done talking on my case for Cardinal. > > I might be alone, but at least I am done arguing it. > > Mafia isn’t really a game for ADHD people, is it? Hey, I’m not saying you’re wrong. In fact, I agree with you on that part. But if you stick with your vote on Cardinal, Chronos is probably gonna hang. At this point, oredigger is pretty much the only reasonably scummy target we have, given apathy, deadlines, scum interference and such. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/750 "2009-06-23T21:12:33Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > Um…I am not following the chronos case at all. It seems to me like a bunch of bungled accusations and personal vendettas. I’m not really sure what’s personal about it. Or bungled, for that matter. **Chronos** was against claiming when it mattered, then said it was clearly pro-Town after it was too late. And recommended we claim right before the scum win the game. And was at the front end of the train that ran over a townie. > [@](#): > > Divided we fall. Chronos? Consider: the oredigger case follows directly from the IF case. If you think IF is scum, then oredigger should be mightily suspicious as well. Stay right there a second… > [@](#): > > Ben? Same thing. As near as I can tell, you’re voting Zeriel for the same things that oredigger’s done. Except oredigger’s done more. It’s important to hit the guy who looks the most suspicious, even if it’s highly unoriginal. Tradition exists for a reason. So who’s more suspicious to you, **Fiend** or **Oredigger**? You voted for the latter, so clearly that question answers itself, right? But then you just said, more or less, that the **Oredigger** case is based on an assumption that **Fiend** is scum. If **Fiend** is scum, we should be suspicious of **Oredigger**. And you voted for **Fiend** originally, so it makes sense that you think he’s scum. Yet here you are advocating for **Oredigger** ’s lynching. Why is that exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/751 "2009-06-23T21:22:44Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > o who’s more suspicious to you, **Fiend** or **Oredigger**? You voted for the latter, so clearly that question answers itself, right? But then you just said, more or less, that the **Oredigger** case is based on an assumption that **Fiend** is scum. If **Fiend** is scum, we should be suspicious of **Oredigger**. And you voted for **Fiend** originally, so it makes sense that you think he’s scum. Yet here you are advocating for **Oredigger** ’s lynching. Why is that exactly? I think they’re both scum. IF and Oredigger. But right now, there are more votes on Oredigger than there are on IF, and that’s what matters. That’s why I said ‘Divided we fall’. Because right now, we’re divided between Oredigger, and IF, and Cardinal, and allwalker–and I’d be happy with lynching any of those, except for allwalker. But because we are divided, the scum are running interference on Chronos, picking up some misguided townies and hoping we are distracted by the thorough. So if you can get a bunch of people to vote IF, I’d gladly join in. But I just don’t think that’s going to happen today, not with the day ending in less than 24 hours. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/752 "2009-06-23T21:38:19Z")
That’s just not accurate. > [@](#): > > But right now, there are more votes on Oredigger than there are on IF, and that’s what matters. Well, yeah, there are, because you switched from one to the other! > [@](#): > > Because right now, we’re divided between Oredigger, and IF, and Cardinal, and allwalker–and I’d be happy with lynching any of those, except for allwalker. No, “we” aren’t. > [@](#): > > But because we are divided, the scum are running interference on Chronos, picking up some misguided townies and hoping we are distracted by the thorough. You already said you think **digger** and **IF** are scum. Neither of those two has voted for **Chronos**. **cardinal** did, but he was the second vote, after me. Who exactly is “the scum” in this scenario, and how exactly are they running interference? This only makes sense if you’re talking about me, but you’re talking to me. So it doesn’t make sense that way, either. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/753 "2009-06-23T21:41:15Z")
> [@Telcontar](#): > > Allwalker, Shadow, and Oredigger on the other hand, actually haven’t voted. Yes, you’re right. I am totally swamped at work today, and am barely catching enough time at the computer to stay current. I will get to it tonight when I get home, as soon as possible. I apologize, and you are right to call me on it. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/754 "2009-06-23T21:42:40Z")
\*\*Vote Count: Chronos(4): Jimmy Chitwood, CardinalFang, Storyteller, USCDiver Oredigger(2): Telcontar, Pedescribe AllWalker(1): Zeriel Imaginary Fiend(1): Chronos Zeriel(1): ScubaBen ShadowFacts(1): Imaginary Fiend CardinalFang(1): Meeko \*\* ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/755 "2009-06-23T22:00:32Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > **USCDiver** , could I ask you to be more specific? In addition to what others have said this part above: > [@](#): > > Meanwhile, storyteller, I was thinking about your role-block or whatever it was last night, and was planning on asking you more about it right now, anyway. I’m having a hard time thinking of a scenario under which it would be pro-Town for you to say that you think you were blocked, but don’t want to post the PM. The biggest problem is that, assuming that what you got was a role-block, then the role-blocker presumably already knows how es own power works, and can probably deduce from what you’re saying and not saying everything e needs to know about what happened. And if, as seems likely, the role-blocker is Scum, then you’re not keeping anything secret from any of the Scum, but only from Town. looks like power role fishing to me. If **storyteller** believes he was possibly blocked and we don’t know if we have a role blocker or what their alignment might be then I don’t think we need to discuss it further until we have more data (say from someone else saying they were blocked tomorrow, a no kill night, etc) > [@pedescribe](#): > > Divided we fall. Chronos? Consider: the oredigger case follows directly from the IF case. If you think IF is scum, then oredigger should be mightily suspicious as well. If the whole case against **oredigger** is predicated on **Imaginary Fiend** being scum, then why wouldn’t we vote for IF first and then if he turns up scum we can turn to others? Why start at the end and work backwards? > [@pedescribe](#): > > USCDiver…could you elaborate? Why is Chronos automatically suspicious for defending himself? It wasn’t that he was scummy for defending himself, but the things he said during the defense. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/756 "2009-06-23T22:51:20Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > Zeriel. Could you just point to your case against allwalker? I think I missed it somewhere. Allwalker made a pair of lists. He then posted three people who were on both lists because he thought they were likely to be scum. I was on both original lists but not one of his listed suspects. I hate it when people screw up lists, and I think it’s a pretty big scum tell. Plus the other cases today are crap. The case against Chronos is a bunch of mumbo-jumbo, and personally I think IF is probably also town and the voting patterns from day one will out a bunch of nervous townies rather than scum saving one of their own. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/757 "2009-06-23T22:56:01Z")
Oh boy. **Time for some WIFOM.** That being said, I think I have all of these at the **peak of their vote** [As I write this] Ichini(6): Chronos, Zeriel, AllWalker, Oredigger, ShadowFacts, Storyteller Imaginary Fiend(5): Tom Scud, Telcontar, Nanook, Pedescribe, CardinalFang Meeko(5) : Pedescribe, BillMC [USCD], AllWalker, Tom Scud, Oredigger, Chronos(4): Jimmy Chitwood, CardinalFang, Storyteller, USCDiver * * * The first thing that strikes me is that we have completely **COMPLETELY** different voters for Ichini, that we did at one time have for IF. \*\*There is probably a LOT more to this. \*\*Could one or the other vote total include JUST scum? - Could it include JUST Scum, and two townies? – Once we assume that, which group of votes is the town group, which is the scum group of votes? – Wine, Indeed. From my time in the spotlight, we are mixed. Digger and Allwalker went to Inchini. Tom Scud and Pedescribe went to IF. Currently, at Chronos, we have Bill/USCD that came from me, Storyteller came from Ichini, Cardinal Fang came from IF, and Chitwood has backed off from the leading votes. I wanted to see if we had the same bandwagon going around the game. unfantastically, we do not. As far as I can tell, we have 4 different “previous” locations for each of the 4 current Chronos votes. Is this not how to go about this? I mean, votes at the end of the day are the only thing that matter\*\*, right? Chronos is leading the vote right? \*\* Obviously, I included my own votes against in this analysis. My bandwagon was such that most everyone assumed scum was in that bandwagon. I still believe this to be the case. For this reason I threw it in here. ---
**Author:** ![Telcontar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3bc359/32.png) [@Telcontar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telcontar)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/758 "2009-06-23T23:29:50Z")
Honestly, **Meeko** , when I think bandwagons I think of the case against you at the beginning, the case against **Imaginary Fiend** yesterday, the case against I **maginary Fiend** this morning, and the case against **Oredigger** (once I started it). Each of these picked up a lot of votes quickly and, briefly, looked like a sure fire win. \*\*meeko \*\*before his name claim clearly was lynch bait, once **imaginary fiend** had tom after him yesterday he pretty clearly looked solid until **ich** finally rose against him and imaginary fiend today…3 votes almost immediately. Then the momentum shifted to \*\*Oredigger \*\*after I made my case, again pretty suddenly. If each of these people is town, then any player who jumped on all of the bandwagons would look mighty suspicious (ahem, **pedescribe** ). I’m suspicious of **Oredigger** , so I’m not going there yet, but if it turns out I’m wrong about him then the common factor of those lynch mobs would start looking mighty worrisome. ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/759 "2009-06-23T23:33:44Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > Oh boy. **Time for some WIFOM.** > > \ > > \*\* Obviously, I included my own votes against in this analysis. My bandwagon was such that most everyone assumed scum was in that bandwagon. I still believe this to be the case. For this reason I threw it in here. I don’t think you have really grasped the concept of WIFOM. You frequently use the term incorrectly. Can you point to the posts where most everyone assumed scum was on your bandwagon? I missed that in my initial read through. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337/760 "2009-06-24T00:20:26Z")
That is interesting information, **Meeko** , though I’m not sure what to make of it. Certainly, neither **Ichini** nor **Imaginary** ’s list is made entirely of Scum, since there almost certainly wouldn’t be five Scum in the game, total. And as **USCDiver** said, whatever it is, it’s not WIFOM. WIFOM is when you say “But maybe that’s just what they _want_ us to think”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337.md?page=37) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lost-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/499337.md?page=39)