# LOTR Bilbo and the Ring Related Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [August 10, 2009, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-bilbo-and-the-ring-related-question/505907 "2009-08-10T03:32:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-bilbo-and-the-ring-related-question/505907/21 "2009-08-11T00:40:27Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > So it could well be that JRRT meant to imply that Narya could have been used to help Bilbo let go. But I don’t believe he left any direct evidence of this actually being used for this purpose in his writings; only set up the supposition that it was possible. That’s what I was getting at above. It’s supposed that Saruman had made a Ring (he said as much in the books - “Saruman the Wise, **Saruman Ring-maker** , Saruman of many Colors!”), and perhaps this made Saruman (more) persuasive, in a daunting way, hence the Voice of Saruman having such potency. Gandalf possessed one of the Great Rings, which I’d think would be much more powerful than any trinket Saruman could bang together, and whose power was to rekindle hearts to brave deeds. It seems to me that Bilbo giving up the ring took all the courage and resolve that Bilbo could muster. Narya seems to me well-suited to assisting him. Not controlling, assisting. But, as you say **Qadgop** , this is all speculation, and there’s no evidence either way. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-bilbo-and-the-ring-related-question/505907/22 "2009-08-12T00:39:35Z")
Speaking of rings, there’s an update on Sauron’s blog today! > [@](#): > > The so-called Dagor Bragollach, or Battle of Sudden Flame, is over. I like to call it the “Battle of Thousands of Elves and Men Screaming I’m on Fire Oh It Hurts So Much.” [http://kunochan.com/sauron/](http://kunochan.com/sauron/) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-bilbo-and-the-ring-related-question/505907/23 "2009-08-12T00:58:36Z")
If Gandalf had wanted to, he could have seized the ring from Bilbo easily. But that use of power would have sent him on the path to evil. Whether Gandalf had done this physically or magically does not matter. Gandalf did no more than suggest strongly to Bilbo what the right course was. And it was Gandalf that was in greater danger than Bilbo had Gandalf done anything more forceful. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-bilbo-and-the-ring-related-question/505907/24 "2009-08-12T01:15:43Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > That’s what I was getting at above. It’s supposed that Saruman had made a Ring (he said as much in the books - “Saruman the Wise, **Saruman Ring-maker** , Saruman of many Colors!”), and perhaps this made Saruman (more) persuasive, in a daunting way, hence the Voice of Saruman having such potency. Gandalf possessed one of the Great Rings, which I’d think would be much more powerful than any trinket Saruman could bang together, and whose power was to rekindle hearts to brave deeds. From [Crackpot Tolkien Theories](http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/theories/grima.htm): > [@](#): > > But if Saruman were to experiment with making Rings of Power, he wouldn’t make only one, would he? No; I think he’d make at least one other, and try to get his ring to exert an influence over the wearer of the other. And who would he give such a ring to? > > Grima Wormtongue seems the obvious answer, since he was so completely under Saruman’s control. > > …Kind of helps you see Saruman in a new light, doesn’t it? Sure, Sauron may have had the Nazgul, the Ringwraiths; but perhaps Saruman in his turn had Grima, the Ringworm! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-bilbo-and-the-ring-related-question/505907/25 "2009-08-12T04:44:29Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > But if Saruman were to experiment with making Rings of Power, he wouldn’t make only one, would he? No; I think he’d make at least one other, and try to get his ring to exert an influence over the wearer of the other. And who would he give such a ring to? > > Grima Wormtongue seems the obvious answer, since he was so completely under Saruman’s control. > > …Kind of helps you see Saruman in a new light, doesn’t it? Sure, Sauron may have had the Nazgul, the Ringwraiths; but perhaps Saruman in his turn had Grima, the Ringworm! Cute pun aside (and it was well done 🙂 ), this approach would be indistinguishable from what actually happened in the books, no? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-bilbo-and-the-ring-related-question/505907/26 "2009-08-12T04:59:10Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > That’s what I was getting at above. It’s supposed that Saruman had made a Ring (he said as much in the books - “Saruman the Wise, **Saruman Ring-maker** , Saruman of many Colors!”), and perhaps this made Saruman (more) persuasive, in a daunting way, hence the Voice of Saruman having such potency. Gandalf possessed one of the Great Rings, which I’d think would be much more powerful than any trinket Saruman could bang together, and whose power was to rekindle hearts to brave deeds. It seems to me that Bilbo giving up the ring took all the courage and resolve that Bilbo could muster. Narya seems to me well-suited to assisting him. \*\*Not controlling, assisting. > \*\* > But, as you say **Qadgop** , this is all speculation, and there’s no evidence either way. I agree with this. The theme of free will seems to be tempered by the idea of a divine plan. You have to decide to do what’s right, but, when you do, event will make you stronger than you really are. Consider Frodo’s failure at the end of the quest. Because he tried his hardest to do what was right, events transpired that made his failure irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-bilbo-and-the-ring-related-question/505907/27 "2009-08-12T12:53:09Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Consider Frodo’s failure at the end of the quest. Because he tried his hardest to do what was right, events transpired that made his failure irrelevant. You think that was a reward for Frodo, for doing his best? :dubious: Here’s my crackpot theory: The ring is inherently evil and destructive. But like all evil things, at some level it knows and detests its own evil. Brought back to its source, where its power is greatest, it destroys itself (through its hold over Gollum). In a way the ring has always been seeking its own destruction (which is also its return to its source, the womb of Orodruin from whence it came), at least since it was first taken from Sauron. That is why it got Isildur killed, why it found Smeagol, and then Bilbo, and then relaxed its hold over Bilbo just enough to enable him to give it up at the crucial moment. If the ring had stayed with Isildur, or had fallen into the hands of Boromir or Galadriel, not only would it have made them into the new Sauron, but they, like Sauron, would have kept it. The ring made sure that did not happen. LOTR is a story about how, with the help of the good, evil destroys itself. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-bilbo-and-the-ring-related-question/505907/28 "2009-08-12T13:37:41Z")
Hm, I always thought it was more a matter of the Ring, being Evil, and Evil being inherentlly flawed not least because of its shortsightedness, betrayed Gollum exactly as Frodo had earlier predicted: [QUOTE=Frodo to Gollum/Smeagol] I mean a danger to yourself alone. You swore a promise by what you call the Precious. Remember that! It will hold you to it; but it will seek a way to twist it to your own undoing. Already you are being twisted. You revealed yourself to me just now, foolishly. Give it back to Smeagol, you said. Do not say that again! Do not let that thought grow in you! You will never get it back. But the desire of it may betray you to a bitter end. In the last need, Smeagol, I should put on the Precious; and the Precious mastered you long ago. If I, wearing it, were to command you, you would obey, even if it were to leap from a precipice or to cast yourself into the fire. And such would be my command. So have a care, Smeagol! [/QUOTE] The Ring was malicious and treacherous, and looked for ways to twist what was required of it in order to betray its holder (presumably excepting Sauron himself). Gollum/Smeagol had sworn by it to serve Frodo, and Frodo had named the penalty for his forswearing his oath. When Gollum seized the Ring for himself, he was in fact cast from a precipice into the fire, just as Frodo had said. The Ring was too short-sighted in its malice and thus led to its own destruction. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-bilbo-and-the-ring-related-question/505907/29 "2009-08-12T14:03:22Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Because he tried his hardest to do what was right, events transpired that made his failure irrelevant. In the larger picture, perhaps. The failure was anything but irrelevant to Frodo. What parts of his dark mood from the end of the War to his sailing to the West that weren’t the result of his Morgul-wound and the basic burden of carrying the Ring for so long came from that failure. He knew that his spirit and resistance to evil had faltered in the end, even if everyone else thought he was a hero for destroying the One. And that failure and the discrepancy between what actually happened and what everyone thought had happened nagged at him. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-bilbo-and-the-ring-related-question/505907/30 "2009-08-12T14:37:17Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > In the larger picture, perhaps. The failure was anything but irrelevant to Frodo. What parts of his dark mood from the end of the War to his sailing to the West that weren’t the result of his Morgul-wound and the basic burden of carrying the Ring for so long came from that failure. He knew that his spirit and resistance to evil had faltered in the end, even if everyone else thought he was a hero for destroying the One. And that failure and the discrepancy between what actually happened and what everyone thought had happened nagged at him. That is true, but not really relevant. He was taken to Valinor to help him get over that. He was never meant to destroy the Ring on his own: it was Sauron’s Will inside it, and that was vastly mroe than he could do. It’s unlikely that any mortal being, and maybe none fo the available immortal ones, could have willingly destroyed the Ring at the heart of its power. Of course, this goes back to another of Tolkein’s points. Good fights evil not with strength but with weakness. Frodo coudl never have won through might, but he did win through the lack of it, even if ti wasn’t how he thought it could be done. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-bilbo-and-the-ring-related-question/505907/31 "2009-08-12T15:12:13Z")
jayjay - wow, you summed up Frodo’s tragedy very well. I have often teared up at that Grey Havens scene in the book, because of the sadness of his loss amid the general “happy ending”. An interesting discussion of Bilbo, Gandalf and the ring here. You guys never let me down with LOTR discussions. In return, here’s a fun link. It’s a funny take on “What if Tolkien submitted the Hobbit manuscript to a book editor today?” > **[Guest Blog Week: Re: Your Query for THE HOBBIT](https://nathanbransford.com/blog/2009/08/guest-blog-week-re-your-query-for)** > > NB: I’m not sure if my sympathies are with J.R.R. Tolkien or with the (fictional) agent. Herbert makes some good points!! By: Peter Cooper Dear Mr. Tolkien, Thank you for submitting a query for your children’s novel, “The Hobbit”. I regret to inform... ---
**Author:** ![Earthworm\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f07891/32.png) [@Earthworm\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthworm_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-bilbo-and-the-ring-related-question/505907/32 "2009-08-12T18:20:50Z")
> [@Stormcrow](#): > > I believe it is stated somewhere in the books that if Bilbo had been forced to give up the ring, it would have broken him, and that he bounced back so well due to the fact that he gave it up willingly. I think you’re thinking of this bit in Moria between Frodo & Gandalf > [@](#): > > ‘What a pity that Bilbo did not stab that vile creature, when he had a chance!’ > > ‘Pity? It was Pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and Mercy: not to strike without need. And he has been well rewarded, Frodo. Be sure that he took so little hurt from the evil, and escaped in the end, because he began his ownership of the Ring so. With Pity.’ I thought the book (or the silmarillion) explicitly said Bilbo was the only ring bearer to ever give up the ring of his own free will. Er…except that wouldn’t really be true, as Sam did it too. Hmm. Guess I’ll have to re-read the book. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-bilbo-and-the-ring-related-question/505907/33 "2009-08-12T19:01:28Z")
I think it’s pretty clear that Gandalf was making use of Narya’s power to rekindle Theoden’s heart, but I don’t think that he could have, on Bilbo. That would be attempting to use the power of one of the Great Rings directly against the One, and I think the Ring-lore is pretty clear that any such attempt would fail at best (or subjugate the wearer to Sauron or the One, at worst). What Gandalf was using on Bilbo had to have been his own natural (and considerable) powers of persuasion. ---
**Author:** ![Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/regallag_the_axe/32/445_2.png) [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Regallag_The_Axe)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-bilbo-and-the-ring-related-question/505907/34 "2009-08-12T19:41:04Z")
Good point, **Chronos**. How could one of the Elf Rings ever beat the One Ring, I mean, that’s the whole point of it being 'One Ring to rule them all". As to the debate about Saruman and his Ring(s); If Wormtongue hadn’t slit his throat, I could certainly have seen Saruman turning into the third Dark Lord of Middle Earth. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-bilbo-and-the-ring-related-question/505907/35 "2009-08-12T20:12:10Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > When Gollum seized the Ring for himself, he was in fact cast from a precipice into the fire, just as Frodo had said. That Gollum’s actual fate is almost identical to Frodo’s threat is a very interesting point. But Tolkien describes Gollum’s fall into the fire as almost an accident, a result of not being fully aware of his immediate surroundings due to his obsession with the Ring and joy at finally getting it. > [@njtt](#): > > You think that was a reward for Frodo, for doing his best? :dubious: Well, yes. But “best” as Tolkien wrote in his letter 246: > [@](#): > > Frodo had done what he could and spent himself completely (as an instrument of Providence) and had produced a situation in which the object of his quest could be achieved. His humility (with which he began) and his sufferings were justly rewarded by the highest honour; and his exercise of patience and mercy towards Gollum gained him Mercy: his failure was redressed. > [@jayjay](#): > > In the larger picture, perhaps. The failure was anything but irrelevant to Frodo. What parts of his dark mood from the end of the War to his sailing to the West that weren’t the result of his Morgul-wound and the basic burden of carrying the Ring for so long came from that failure. He knew that his spirit and resistance to evil had faltered in the end, even if everyone else thought he was a hero for destroying the One. And that failure and the discrepancy between what actually happened and what everyone thought had happened nagged at him. Substantially correct. In the same letter, Tolkien parses it a little more closely: > [@](#): > > I do not myself see that the breaking of his mind and will under demonic pressure after torment was any more a moral failure than the breaking of his body would have been - say, by being strangled by Gollum, or crushed by a falling rock. > > That appears to have been the judgement of Gandalf and Aragorn and of all who learned the full story of his journey. Certainly nothing would be concealed by Frodo! But what Frodo himself felt about the events is quite another matter… > > That was actually a temptation out of the Dark, a last flicker of pride: desire to have returned as a ‘hero’, not content with being a mere instrument of good. And it was mixed with another temptation, blacker and yet (in a sense) more merited, for however that may be explained, he had not in fact cast away the Ring by a voluntary act: he was tempted to regret its destruction, and still to desire it. And that last paragraph tells us something of the reasons Tolkien discarded the earlier version of “The Scouring of the Shire” in which Frodo took an active part. ---
**Author:** ![cjepson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9adbd/32.png) [@cjepson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cjepson)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-bilbo-and-the-ring-related-question/505907/36 "2009-08-12T20:51:43Z")
> [@Earthworm\_Jim](#): > > I thought the book (or the silmarillion) explicitly said Bilbo was the only ring bearer to ever give up the ring of his own free will. Er…except that wouldn’t really be true, as Sam did it too. Hmm. Guess I’ll have to re-read the book. IIRC, that statement was made by Gandalf somewhere in the early part of the book (thus, it was still true at the time it was made). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-bilbo-and-the-ring-related-question/505907/37 "2009-08-12T21:23:24Z")
> [@cjepson](#): > > IIRC, that statement was made by Gandalf somewhere in the early part of the book (thus, it was still true at the time it was made). Was it before or after Tom Bombadil gave up the ring? (Or does Tom not count?) ---
**Author:** ![tr0psn4j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@tr0psn4j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tr0psn4j)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-bilbo-and-the-ring-related-question/505907/38 "2009-08-12T23:00:15Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Was it before or after Tom Bombadil gave up the ring? (Or does Tom not count?) I think it was while he was talking to Frodo right after the party. So before Tom was introduced. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-bilbo-and-the-ring-related-question/505907/39 "2009-08-12T23:58:16Z")
Besides, Tom doesn’t count. The Ring had no power over him; he was other. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-bilbo-and-the-ring-related-question/505907/40 "2009-08-13T02:44:58Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I think it’s pretty clear that Gandalf was making use of Narya’s power to rekindle Theoden’s heart, but I don’t think that he could have, on Bilbo. That would be attempting to use the power of one of the Great Rings directly against the One, and I think the Ring-lore is pretty clear that any such attempt would fail at best (or subjugate the wearer to Sauron or the One, at worst). What Gandalf was using on Bilbo had to have been his own natural (and considerable) powers of persuasion. Doesn’t Bilbo have to be _wearing_ the ring for any of this to apply? Gandalf was apparently wearing his, but had the power to conceal it (or at least Galadriel could do this, and its implied that the other two bearers of The Three could as well). How could it be a contention between The One and Narya if The One was in Bilbo’s jacket pocket? How about if it were up on the mantle? Or in the cellar by that bottle of Old Winyards (a very good year)? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-bilbo-and-the-ring-related-question/505907.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-bilbo-and-the-ring-related-question/505907.md?page=3)