# LOTR Book Question - open spoilers **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 12, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296 "2012-01-12T16:05:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/41 "2012-01-14T18:52:54Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I wish we had more information on the Blue Wizards etc., and I’m glad we don’t. > > Let me explain: In any real world, there are _always_ unexplained mysteries. **People like me are driven to solve those mysteries, but when we do, we always find yet more mysteries behind them, so even if each mystery eventually gets explained, there are always some that are not.** By leaving in some unexplained mysteries, then, Tolkien makes Middle-Earth more real. I expect, for example, that Mr. **Chronos** will develop quantum physics theories to explain the magic of Middle Earth, and will attempt to explain the seeing-powers of the Palantiri in terms of quantum entanglement. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/42 "2012-01-14T18:58:18Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > From the author’s perspective, it’s more dramatic and suspensful to have Gandalf in ignorance of what he is facing. No, that’s _your_ perspective. Do feel free to enjoy it. It’s also dramatic and suspenseful for Gandalf to suspect something, worry about it, and in the end have to face it after all. YMMV. It’s a reasonable interpretation, and not contrived in the least. Gandalf was not a doddering old fool. He must have had some hypotheses about what Durin’s Bane could have been. Either way, we’ll never know what Tolkien was thinking. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/43 "2012-01-14T19:20:57Z")
so many interesting answers! only have time to respond to one now. someone - WhatExit, I think - commented on the roles of the four hobbits. great comment, but of course Pippin was more than a fool of Took, for reasons already mentioned, and also for leaving the clasp from Lorien on the trail for Aragorn to find, and more importantly, for saving Faramir’s life! Also, Frodo is the hero of the story for me. Imagine him sitting on the hill after Boromir attacked him. He has a vision of the entire world at war with him holding the key to its salvation or destruction. And he resolves to go on alone. It also breaks my heart when he’s at Mt. Doom and he’s very weak and tells Sam that he’ll crawl on to his destination. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/44 "2012-01-14T19:44:22Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > No, that’s _your_ perspective. Do feel free to enjoy it. > > It’s also dramatic and suspenseful for Gandalf to suspect something, worry about it, and in the end have to face it after all. YMMV. It’s a reasonable interpretation, and not contrived in the least. Gandalf was not a doddering old fool. He must have had some hypotheses about what Durin’s Bane could have been. > > Either way, we’ll never know what Tolkien was thinking. Nope. You are wrong. There is no evidence to support anything you said. Tolkien didn’t do that in any other part of the story. Why would he pick this one passage to completely throw away all his conventions in favor of poor writing and bad style? Just because he had some guesses doesn’t mean he ever thought it was a balrog. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/45 "2012-01-14T20:01:39Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > I expect, for example, that Mr. **Chronos** will develop quantum physics theories to explain the magic of Middle Earth, and will attempt to explain the seeing-powers of the Palantiri in terms of quantum entanglement. 😃 Chronos is quite clear in other threads that you cannot use quantum entanglement to communicate. Why, I cannot guess. It is beyond any of you. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/46 "2012-01-14T20:55:32Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Chronos is quite clear in other threads that you cannot use quantum entanglement to communicate. Why, I cannot guess. It is beyond any of you. Not LOTR, but His Dark Materials uses QE for communications, yeah? ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/47 "2012-01-14T21:49:30Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > No, it’s silly to read things into the text that aren’t there, or favour a contrived explanation over a straightforward one. You are 100% correct here. That other fellow is 100% incorrect. (Just in case you were having any self doubts.) :^) ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/48 "2012-01-14T22:10:51Z")
The quote “I cannot guess” is _not_ a good argument to “prove” that Gandalf could in no way have ever speculated that a balrog might be Durin’s Bane. No one capable of thinking can believe that Tolkien meant Gandalf was literally incapable of guessing. He _was_ capable of making a guess–but out of fear or worry (perhaps–it’s all speculation) he chose not to. Obviously it _was_ guessable. Gandalf knew what balrogs were, and he knew what a short list of things dangerous enough to seriously challenge him in Middle Earth would be. My speculation (that Gandalf may have guessed a balrog or something comparably powerful was lurking in Moria)\* is\* logically supported by the text. His fear, his nervousness, his reluctance to guess, and his lack of surprise when the balrog revealed itself. Not many things in Middle Earth are going to make Gandalf as nervous as he was. It’s a very small number of creatures, and Gandalf was certainly aware of what many if not most of them were likely to be. > [@YoDoc](#): > > Nope. You are wrong. There is no evidence to support anything you said. Tolkien didn’t do that in any other part of the story. Why would he pick this one passage to completely throw away all his conventions in favor of poor writing and bad style? See above. > [@](#): > > Just because he had some guesses doesn’t mean he ever thought it was a balrog. My conjecture all along was that Gandalf may have guessed a balrog or something like it was Durin’s Bane, not that he _knew_ it was. I can speculate on available evidence that Gandalf may have guessed the possibility; there is nothing to support he knew it was a balrog in there and I never said there was. The word I used was “suspected.” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/49 "2012-01-14T22:32:11Z")
I would interpret Gandalf’s statement as something like “There is a very long list of possibilities, but I have insufficient information to pick one from that list”. He wasn’t surprised to find it a Balrog, but he wouldn’t have been surprised to find it a black sorcerer, or a spawn of Ungoliant, or a ringwraith, or a Barrow-wight, or many other possibilities we’re glad we don’t know of, either. Oh, and you can use quantum entanglement as part of a communication scheme. You just can’t use it _alone_ as a communication scheme. It could be quite handy, though, for securely encrypting a transmission you send via more conventional means. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/50 "2012-01-14T22:39:04Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I would interpret Gandalf’s statement as something like “There is a very long list of possibilities, but I have insufficient information to pick one from that list”. He wasn’t surprised to find it a Balrog, but he wouldn’t have been surprised to find it a black sorcerer, or a spawn of Ungoliant, or a ringwraith, or a Barrow-wight, or many other possibilities we’re glad we don’t know of, either. I think this is a reasonable statement akin to my own thinking, except I would say that the list surely isn’t all that long. Gandalf was a maia, after all, albeit one operating under explicit limitations. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2012, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/51 "2012-01-15T01:03:06Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > I think this is a reasonable statement akin to my own thinking, except I would say that the list surely isn’t all that long. Gandalf was a maia, after all, albeit one operating under explicit limitations. So? We really don’t know what things could challenge Gandalf and what couldn’t. A balrog could, obviously, but Gandalf wasn’t expecting resistance like that when he started in on the closing spell. He got caught off guard, and probably barely managed a win there. There are many creatures in the deep places that one would not want to meet. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2012, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/52 "2012-01-15T12:33:22Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > It’s also dramatic and suspenseful for Gandalf to suspect something, worry about it, and in the end have to face it after all. As **YoDoc** pointed out, that assumes Tolkien forgot or failed to give us any indication of Gandalf’s thoughts. Why assume this when there is a much more simple explanation? > [@Knorf](#): > > Gandalf was not a doddering old fool. He must have had some hypotheses about what Durin’s Bane could have been. That’s a non-sequiter. It does not follow that Gandalf’s failure to immediately recognise, unseen, something he has never encountered before does not make him a doddering fool. He’s not running around Middle Earth with a copy of the D&D monster manual. He does not immediately recognise the palantir either. > [@Knorf](#): > > I think this is a reasonable statement akin to my own thinking, except I would say that the list surely isn’t all that long. Gandalf was a maia, after all, albeit one operating under explicit limitations. As I said above, Gandalf’s knowledge has it’s limits. He also has to consider he might have just encountered something unknown to the outside world. A few days before, the company encounter The Watcher in the Water. [QUOTE=Gandalf] Something has crept or been driven out of the dark water under the mountains. There are older and fouler things than orcs in the deep places of the world. [/QUOTE] As you say, Gandalf was a maia, so the number of entities able to directly challenge him should be fairly small. However, there are powerful creatures in Middle Earth that are not maiar. The wolf Carcharoth is mightier than Sauron in wolf form. The dragons are also very potent. Who knows what other experiments of Morgoth might be lying hidden? Or could things like the spirit of Caradhras and the “nameless things that gnaw the earth” be a result of the corruption of the Ainulindalë? What else might be present? Before the balrog was sighted by the company, did anyone have any reason to expect they were not all accounted for at the end of the first age? They were not seen for thousands of years. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2012, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/53 "2012-01-15T15:55:23Z")
Keep in mind that Gandalf was a maia who had become very limited. He was not a maia who had chosen to be embodied in the form of a man, he was a maia who, for the duration of his wizardhood, essentially was a man (or elf, or some mixture of the Children of Iluvatar.) He still had some knowledge from his maia days, and some powers above and beyond those of the Children, but he was severely truncated from his previous incarnation. He felt pain, hunger, weariness, and he could be slain. He had chosen to become sort of a handy mobile device with limited utilities and storage space whose link to the internet was severely limited, and had to make do with what functions he had on board. In his battle with the balrog, he was granted more capabilities due the the severity of the situation. And after his death, he got one badass upgrade, with a much better internet connection. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/54 "2012-01-15T17:09:15Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Keep in mind that Gandalf was a maia who had become very limited. He was not a maia who had chosen to be embodied in the form of a man, he was a maia who, for the duration of his wizardhood, essentially was a man (or elf, or some mixture of the Children of Iluvatar.) He still had some knowledge from his maia days, and some powers above and beyond those of the Children, but he was severely truncated from his previous incarnation. Indeed: [QUOTE=Gandalf] Olorin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten. [/QUOTE] This is expanded upon in the essay on the Istari in Unfinished Tales. > [@](#): > > …For it is said that being embodied the Istari had need to learn much by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off… ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/55 "2012-01-16T02:06:20Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > He had chosen to become sort of a handy mobile device with limited utilities and storage space whose link to the internet was severely limited, and had to make do with what functions he had on board… I think this is the only time that I’ve ever seen Gandalf described as an iPad. 🙂 (It would help explain the White colour scheme…) ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/56 "2012-01-16T06:30:24Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > As **YoDoc** pointed out, that assumes Tolkien forgot or failed to give us any indication of Gandalf’s thoughts. Why assume this when there is a much more simple explanation? What, assume that he was utterly brainless and clueless? I think not. Anyway, I’m done with this argument. It’s just going in circles. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/57 "2012-01-16T14:53:35Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > What, assume that he was utterly brainless and clueless? I think not. > > Anyway, I’m done with this argument. It’s just going in circles. Not circles, more like a bunch of people telling you that you’re wrong, and you saying “nu-uh”. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/58 "2012-01-16T15:04:40Z")
now guys, no fighting in the war room. back to Tolkien questions, like was Lorien a Matriarchy? or was Galadriel singular in being a female ruler? Were the elves so wise they didn’t discriminate between the sexes when having leaders? I see Galadriel & Celeborn as sort of the Middle Earth Elizabeth II /Prince Philip in terms of their political roles, but others may see it differently. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/59 "2012-01-16T16:35:08Z")
> [@well\_he\_s\_back](#): > > now guys, no fighting in the war room. > back to Tolkien questions, like was Lorien a Matriarchy? or was Galadriel singular in being a female ruler? Were the elves so wise they didn’t discriminate between the sexes when having leaders? I see Galadriel & Celeborn as sort of the Middle Earth Elizabeth II /Prince Philip in terms of their political roles, but others may see it differently. It was not the custom of Lothlorien for a ruling Queen. Before Galadriel & Celeborn took the leadership role it was ruled by Amroth. Lothlorien was founded by his father. Galadriel was more co-ruler though then absolute ruler. This was probably as she was one of the most powerful beings in Middle Earth. In Numenor they had a 4 ruling Queen I believe and there were a few women who led the more tribal groups of men in the first age. Worth noting the story was written before Elizabeth II. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/60 "2012-01-16T16:44:58Z")
“Worth noting the story was written before Elizabeth II” I hope you are not implying I didn’t know that, as I just turned 59 yesterday and have been reading these books since junior high. One of the things I remind others of is how Tolkien’s experience of WWI probably affected aspects of LOTR. Whatever - I enjoy your insights, What Exit, and the info re Elf-rulers. silly question - Does Saruman ever remind any other readers of Hitler? Just reread the Voice of Saruman Chapter, and that comparison came to mind. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296.md?page=4)