# LOTR Book Question - open spoilers **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 12, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296 "2012-01-12T16:05:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/81 "2012-01-17T17:53:46Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > šŸ˜• > > Tolkien would have been passingly familiar with Queen Victoriaā€¦ E2 was specifically mentioned. That was the only reason for my comment. Of course it is likely the Good Professor took inspiration from Victoria and Elizabeth I for his various ruling Queens. In fact in my post you quoted from I quoted **well heā€™s back** where he mentioned Queen Elizabeth II. Also **well heā€™s back** , that was just a general comment for any others reading the thread that might not have the timeline correct for the writing on the book. Not specifically directed at you. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/82 "2012-01-17T19:03:11Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > E2 was specifically mentioned. That was the only reason for my comment. > > Of course it is likely the Good Professor took inspiration from Victoria and Elizabeth I for his various ruling Queens. > > In fact in my post you quoted from I quoted **well heā€™s back** where he mentioned Queen Elizabeth II. > Also **well heā€™s back** , that was just a general comment for any others reading the thread that might not have the timeline correct for the writing on the book. Not specifically directed at you. I am still lost in the weeds. I was confused by the idea that Tolkien was breaking new ground by having females rulers of nations or city states in his books. The mention of Queen Elizabeth the Second doesnā€™t clear anything up for me. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/83 "2012-01-17T19:15:48Z")
New Question - (since no one was interested in comparing Sauron to Hitler) - Would Tolkienā€™s LOTR have been even better if he had been more willing to kill of main characters? Almost all the main characters survive, though Iā€™d argue Frodo was irreparably damaged. Thanks for the note, What Exit. and mlees - I only mentioned ElizabethII & Prince Philip to compare their relationship to Galadriel and Celeborn. that was in regard to discussion/question of a woman being in charge of Lorien and whether this was customary for Elves. sorry for any confusion. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/84 "2012-01-17T19:29:06Z")
dang too late to edit previous post - meant to compare Saruman to Hitler - specifically the power of their voice to persuade people. If I remember the timeline, Tolkien was writing the books during WWII, sending chapters to his son Christopher who was off fighting with the British. and Tolkien had formed a bad opinion of Hitler anyway. Theodenā€™s speech to Saruman where he states that he had no right to enslave others also reminds me of the comparison. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/85 "2012-01-17T19:57:22Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > I am still lost in the weeds. > > I was confused by the idea that Tolkien was breaking new ground by having females rulers of nations or city states in his books. > > The mention of Queen Elizabeth the Second doesnā€™t clear anything up for me. Iā€™m confused myself, I donā€™t see where I even hinted he was breaking new ground. Odd read of what I wrote and absolutely not my intention to say he was breaking new ground. > [@well\_he\_s\_back](#): > > New Question - (since no one was interested in comparing Sauron to Hitler) - > Would Tolkienā€™s LOTR have been even better if he had been more willing to kill of main characters? Almost all the main characters survive, though Iā€™d argue Frodo was irreparably damaged. I donā€™t think it would have been better. The growth of almost every character was a key part of what I loved about the story. Frodo grew greater then Saruman in the end (in character not power). He was a great and tragic figure. Samwise grew in all ways, wiser, smarter, richer, more successful and living the Hobbit dream with a giant family and the respect of most Hobbits. Meriadoc became one of the great heroes of the land and more specifically one of the Shireā€™s great captains. Even Pippin gained in stature though less then the other Hobbits. Gandalf being revealed as something greater in his return as Gandalf the White and finally being able to gather a little moss before he left on the White Ship was very interesting and on the first read, his death still had great impact. Aragorn progressing from mysterious stranger to triumphant King was perfect. The standard hero but as the backdrop to the books main characters, the 4 Hobbits. Gimli grew perhaps as much as anyone but Samwise. From the almost generic Dwarf of the Hobbit ilk to one over whom gold had lost its hold. Who instead found beauty in so many other things and friendship with those from other races. Legolas did not seem to grow much, but then he was by far the eldest of the Fellowship other then Gandalf. Boromirā€™s death was well done, his betrayal and redemption in death worked very well. Tolkien did give us Theodenā€™s death also and that was very well done. Denethorā€™s was just sad and depressing. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/86 "2012-01-17T20:07:25Z")
I donā€™t think it was possible for anyone at that time (or since, for that matter) to write any villainous character without being influenced by Hitler. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/87 "2012-01-17T22:17:30Z")
interesting answers. What Exit - you are so right - the growth of the characters is wonderful. Iā€™m personally really glad he didnā€™t kill off more, but Iā€™ve often read it as a criticism. and Frodo is a great and tragic character. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/88 "2012-01-18T00:55:39Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > My guess is that, since the Valar did in fact help humanity win (by sending Gandalf, among other things), they would do something else to help if that plan failed. > > They wouldnā€™t come in force - if youā€™ve read _The Silmarillion_ youā€™ll know how badly that went in the past - but neither will they entirely abandon humanity to darkness. when did the Valar intervening in Middle Earth end badly in the past? When they showed up and defeated Melkor/Morgoth, I thought they did a pretty good job, and was thinking they should have done it much sooner. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/89 "2012-01-18T00:57:06Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Aragornā€™s healing powers were beyond that of other mortal men of his age. They came from being a descendant of Luthien, daughter of Melian the Maia. Which means that Aragorn married his great-great-great-great-ā€¦-great[sup]n[/sup]-aunt. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/90 "2012-01-18T01:28:02Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > Which means that Aragorn married his great-great-great-great-ā€¦-great[sup]n[/sup]-aunt. Yes, thatā€™s almost the first thing Arwen says to Aragorn when they meet: ā€œwe are kin from afarā€ (something like that anyway) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/91 "2012-01-18T01:41:02Z")
Actually, first cousin _n_ times removed. And **Noodles** , have you ever noticed that the maps in the _Silmarillion_ look almost nothing like the maps in _Lord of the Rings_? Thereā€™s a reason for that. As the African proverb says, when elephants battle, it is the grass that suffers. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/92 "2012-01-18T16:18:49Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > when did the Valar intervening in Middle Earth end badly in the past? When they showed up and defeated Melkor/Morgoth, I thought they did a pretty good job, and was thinking they should have done it much sooner. > **[War of Wrath](https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/War_of_Wrath)** > > The War of Wrath, also called the Great Battle, was a clash of Elves, Men, Dwarves and Ainur against the forces of the fallen Vala Morgoth, marking both the end of the First Age and of Morgoth's rule in Middle-earth. It was the largest battle to ever... The NW corner of the continent was submerged, and the continent reshaped, among other things. (ā€œAftermathā€, above) This is the land lost: > **[Beleriand](https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Beleriand)** > > Beleriand was a vast region in northwestern Middle-earth during the First Age. Originally, its name referred only to the area around the Bay of Balar, but in time the name applied to the entire land. The root of its name, Beler or Balar, is believed... The mountains on the eastern edge of that map are the ā€œEred Luinā€. (Blue Mountains) On the map below, taken from the third age, the Ered Luin are shown as belong along the western coast of Arnor. > **[Blue Mountains](https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Blue_Mountains)** > > The Blue Mountains, or Ered Luin, was a mountain range situated in the far west of Eriador and the far east of Beleriand. The Blue Mountains arose sometime after the tumultuous chaos caused by Melkor's destruction of the Two Lamps that destroyed the... ---
**Author:** ![Unpronounceable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9de0a6/32.png) [@Unpronounceable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unpronounceable)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/93 "2012-01-18T18:49:51Z")
Re: #3 Not a cheat, because weā€™d already been introduced to a character who pulled the same stunt. The elf-lord who helped rescue the hobbits at the river on the way to Elrondā€™s had, in a previous age, killed a balrog in similar circumstances, including the dying & later returning part. I _think_ this was explained in the massive infodump at the end, not gonna check just now. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/94 "2012-01-18T19:21:59Z")
> [@Unpronounceable](#): > > Re: #3 > > Not a cheat, because weā€™d already been introduced to a character who pulled the same stunt. > > The elf-lord who helped rescue the hobbits at the river on the way to Elrondā€™s had, in a previous age, killed a balrog in similar circumstances, including the dying & later returning part. > > I _think_ this was explained in the massive infodump at the end, not gonna check just now. Glorfindel is said to be the only elf to return to Middle Earth after death. He died defending the refugees of Gondolin slaying a Balrog but dying in doing so. He was one of the Captains and probably related to royal line sharing the rare trait of blond hair with those like Galadriel. Tolkien was unsure when Glorfindel returned but was leaning towards the second age as a precursor to the Wizards. Another thought was he and Gandalf came over together. Glorfindel was one of the few beings the Nazguls were deeply afraid of. He had around 1973 third age led an army to Angmar and chased the Witch-king from the north. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/95 "2012-01-18T20:08:26Z")
I just reread the first chapter of The Two Towers. That passage is actually enhanced for me by the film. I can say that for a few passages (unlike those that the film crapped on, like the character of Denethor). of course, Sean Beanā€™s portrayal of Boromir was pretty great, I think. No question today, just pointing out that the FOTR movie really added to my enjoyment of this chapter (ā€œThe Departure of Boromirā€) ---
**Author:** ![Ian\_D.Bergkamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Ian\_D.Bergkamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ian_D.Bergkamp)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/96 "2012-01-18T20:31:32Z")
> [@well\_he\_s\_back](#): > > I just reread the first chapter of The Two Towers. That passage is actually enhanced for me by the film. I can say that for a few passages (unlike those that the film crapped on, like the character of Denethor). of course, Sean Beanā€™s portrayal of Boromir was pretty great, I think. > > No question today, just pointing out that the FOTR movie really added to my enjoyment of this chapter (ā€œThe Departure of Boromirā€) The book doesnā€™t go into much detail about the death of Boromir. I agree that Peter Jacksonā€™s version was excellent, but it was one of the highlights of the 1978 animated LOTR movie. As bad as that movie was in places, it got a lot of things right. Thatā€™s one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/97 "2012-01-18T21:14:06Z")
> [@](#): > > Glorfindel was one of the few beings the Nazguls were deeply afraid of. He had around 1973 third age led an army to Angmar and chased the Witch-king from the north. Fundamentally, the Nazgulsā€™ power was based almost entirely on fear. Anyone who did not fear them, therefore, they were almost powerless against. And anyone they were powerless against, they of course feared themselves. This includes mighty elf-lords like Glorfindel, of course, but it also includes some ordinary common folk like Farmer Maggot. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/98 "2012-01-18T23:57:38Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Fundamentally, the Nazgulsā€™ power was based almost entirely on fear. Anyone who did not fear them, therefore, they were almost powerless against. And anyone they were powerless against, they of course feared themselves. This includes mighty elf-lords like Glorfindel, of course, but it also includes some ordinary common folk like Farmer Maggot. Fear and surpriseā€¦ And of course Glorfindelā€™s power over them wasnā€™t just predicated on his lack of fear of them, but on the fact that he had lived in the Blessed Realm. Frodo saw him as a bright light in the shadow world, and although weā€™re not told exactly what he could do there, Gandalf does say that Glorfindel had great power over both the seen and the unseen. ---
**Author:** ![Suil\_Dubh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/85f322/32.png) [@Suil\_Dubh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suil_Dubh)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/99 "2012-01-19T00:22:37Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > Besides, thereā€™s no balrog in any edition of the D&D Monster Manual. There were Balrogs in the wargame ā€œChainmailā€, the precursor to Dungeons & Dragons, and Iā€™ve read that the first edition of the original Dungeons & Dragons game also had Balrogs, before they were changed to ā€œType VI Demonsā€. > **[Balrog stats? | Original D&D Discussion](https://odd74.proboards.com/thread/4914)** > > Anyone know? According to Post#10 in this thread, original Dungeons and Dragons also had NazgĆ»l! > **[All the OD&D Monsters | Original D&D Discussion](https://odd74.proboards.com/thread/6472)** > > Monsters & Treasure offers something like 80 monster types to play with, but it doesn't end there, oh no. A plethora of additional monsters were subsequently published by TSR in many sources. You could argue that these Balrog appearances\* were all pre- Advanced Dungeons and Dragons ā€œMonster Manualā€, but it would be kind of pedantic considering the ā€œType VIā€ demon is a Balrog in everything but name only. \*Pesky Balrogs, appearing everywhere. Shoo! ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/100 "2012-01-19T00:56:49Z")
> [@Suil\_Dubh](#): > > There were Balrogs in the wargame ā€œChainmailā€, the precursor to Dungeons & Dragons, and Iā€™ve read that the first edition of the original Dungeons & Dragons game also had Balrogs, before they were changed to ā€œType VI Demonsā€. > > [Balrog stats? | Original D&D Discussion](http://odd74.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=chainmail&action=display&thread=4914) > > According to Post#10 in this thread, original Dungeons and Dragons also had NazgĆ»l! > > [All the OD&D Monsters | Original D&D Discussion](http://odd74.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=monterstreasure&action=display&thread=6472) > > You could argue that these Balrog appearances\* were all pre- Advanced Dungeons and Dragons ā€œMonster Manualā€, but it would be kind of pedantic considering the ā€œType VIā€ demon is a Balrog in everything but name only. > > \*Pesky Balrogs, appearing everywhere. Shoo! I donā€™t remember Balrogs but the Nazguls, Barrow Wights and Hobbits were all there. I still have those earliest books but havenā€™t looked through them in ages. The Tolkien estate required the name changes. I think that might be the reason Gygax appeared resentful of the Tolkien influence on the game. Iā€™ve heard both he and Arneson say it was mostly Arneson though. I think they may even have broken the Hobbits into Fallohide, Stoor and Harfoot and I know that even in the original Monster Manual they still retained the types of Hobbits as mostly matching these 3. The Elven breakdown was pretty close to Tolkien too with the addition of the Drow. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296.md?page=6)