# LOTR Book Question - open spoilers **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 12, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296 "2012-01-12T16:05:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/101 "2012-01-19T01:21:45Z")
> [@Suil\_Dubh](#): > > I’ve read that the first edition of the original Dungeons & Dragons game also had Balrogs, before they were changed to “Type VI Demons”. Balrogs were changed to “Balors,” I believe after some strong words from the Tolkein estate. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/102 "2012-01-19T01:22:46Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > Balrogs were changed to “Balors,” I believe after some strong words from the Tolkein estate. Balor was just the most powerful of the Type VI demons. It was a name and not a type of monster. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/103 "2012-01-19T01:47:00Z")
> [@Suil\_Dubh](#): > > You could argue that these Balrog appearances\* were all pre- Advanced Dungeons and Dragons “Monster Manual”, but it would be kind of pedantic considering the “Type VI” demon is a Balrog in everything but name only. We live for pedantry on the SDMB. Nonetheless, I accept your corrections. I admit I came late to Dungeons and Dragons, starting with the basic set and then AD&D. I missed out on the earliest versions. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/104 "2012-01-19T02:12:23Z")
OK, I can’t help myself, I just went and checked. I have the original 3 book D&D set and the old single blue book and neither lists Balrogs. Barrow-wights and Hobbits were mentioned but I did not find Nazguls or Ring Wraiths either so I was probably wrong on them. As a bonus Ents were in it. ---
**Author:** ![Suil\_Dubh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/85f322/32.png) [@Suil\_Dubh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suil_Dubh)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/105 "2012-01-19T02:29:14Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > I admit I came late to Dungeons and Dragons, starting with the basic set and then AD&D. I missed out on the earliest versions. Me too! Started with the red box with the Erol Otus cover, and then moved on to AD&D. > [@What\_Exit](#): > > OK, I can’t help myself, I just went and checked. I have the original 3 book D&D set and the old single blue book and neither lists Balrogs. Barrow-wights and Hobbits were mentioned but I did not find Nazguls or Ring Wraiths either so I was probably wrong on them. As a bonus Ents were in it. IIRC the Balrogs were only in the first, or first few editions. _runs off to check Google_ OK, found the link I was looking for. This is where I remember reading about the Balrogs (but had forgotten the name of the site) Scroll down to “sixth edition” and they mention the Balrog-removal (pesky Balrogs). > **[Original D&D Set](https://www.acaeum.com/ddindexes/setpages/original.html)** Ha ha, I guess I’m being pretty pedantic too. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/106 "2012-01-19T02:30:32Z")
OK, that makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/107 "2012-01-19T04:10:22Z")
> [@Suil\_Dubh](#): > > You could argue that these Balrog appearances\* were all pre- Advanced Dungeons and Dragons “Monster Manual”, but it would be kind of pedantic considering the “Type VI” demon is a Balrog in everything but name only. > > \*Pesky Balrogs, appearing everywhere. Shoo! So did they have wings? Could they fly? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/108 "2012-01-19T05:23:00Z")
> [@rowrrbazzle](#): > > So did they have wings? Could they fly? > > 😃 If they were anything like Tolkien’s, yes and no, respectively. ---
**Author:** ![Suil\_Dubh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/85f322/32.png) [@Suil\_Dubh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suil_Dubh)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/109 "2012-01-19T10:04:56Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > If they were anything like Tolkien’s, yes and no, respectively. Goodbye thread! ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/110 "2012-01-19T14:13:59Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Balor was just the most powerful of the Type VI demons. It was a name and not a type of monster. Ah indeed. Did they all have a shadow of wings, or just the Balor? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/111 "2012-01-19T14:58:35Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > If they were anything like Tolkien’s, yes and no, respectively. You misspelt “Jackson’s” 😉 ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/112 "2012-01-19T15:49:16Z")
prize for everyone who came here - great xkcd - LOTR related cartoon > **[Single Ladies](https://xkcd.com/712/)** > > Using a ring to bind someone you covet into your dark and twisted world? Wow, just got the subtext there. Also, the apparently eager Beyoncé would've made one badass Nazgȗl. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/113 "2012-01-19T15:51:51Z")
I thought the old D&D (of the 1980 time frame) called them "Pit Fiend"s? ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/114 "2012-01-19T19:33:13Z")
a couple comments before this thread drops off the front page - agreeing with whoever said previously that leaving much of Middle Earth an eternal mystery is a good thing. I truly think that saturating the market with Star Wars stories (that was the example given in the previous post) made that fictional universe far less intriguing. also the growth of the characters is very important in the books. Still bugs me when I hear that Tolkien only wrote one-dimensional characters. NOT ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/115 "2012-01-19T20:26:20Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Actually, first cousin _n_ times removed. > > And **Noodles** , have you ever noticed that the maps in the _Silmarillion_ look almost nothing like the maps in _Lord of the Rings_? There’s a reason for that. As the African proverb says, when elephants battle, it is the grass that suffers. > [@mlees](#): > > [War of Wrath | The One Wiki to Rule Them All | Fandom](http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/War_of_Wrath) > > The NW corner of the continent was submerged, and the continent reshaped, among other things. (“Aftermath”, above) > > This is the land lost: > > [Beleriand | The One Wiki to Rule Them All | Fandom](http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Beleriand) > > The mountains on the eastern edge of that map are the “Ered Luin”. (Blue Mountains) > > On the map below, taken from the third age, the Ered Luin are shown as belong along the western coast of Arnor. > > [Blue Mountains | The One Wiki to Rule Them All | Fandom](http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Blue_Mountains) Well thank you for clearing something up for me. I always thought that Beleriand was further North, not to the west under the sea. You learn something new every day. Still, the Elves and Men of Middle Earth were better off with the Valar intervening than they would have been if the Valar had let Morgoth conquer all the Beleriand kingdoms one by one. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2012, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/116 "2012-01-20T04:24:00Z")
OK, I just checked my old Players’ Handbook, and as of 2nd edition, there were still the three subraces of halfling: > [@](#): > > There are three types of halflings: Hairfeets, Tallfellows, and Stouts. Hairfeets are the most common type, but for player characters, any of the three is acceptable. Later, it says that Stouts get a couple of bonuses the other two subraces don’t, so in practice, almost all halfling PCs were Stout. And Pit Fiends are devils, not demons. The emnity between demons and devils, in D&D lore, is nearly as strong, or possibly even stronger, than that between either and celestials. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/117 "2012-01-20T16:49:35Z")
All righty. I knew Devils (LE) and Demons (CE) didn’t get along (and there is supposed to be eternal battles taking place in some of the lower planes). I didn’t remember which class of undercritter Pit Fiends were. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2012, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296/118 "2012-01-20T21:51:18Z")
It’s known as the [Blood War](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_War). Oh, yeah: pit fiends are LE devils (“greater devils” to be precise). It’s probably also worth mentioning that some demons in the Abyss are busier fighting each other and couldn’t care less about the Blood War. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-book-question-open-spoilers/609296.md?page=5)