# LOTR Books -- Middle Earth (possible spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 20, 2002, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-books-middle-earth-possible-spoilers/137788 "2002-11-20T19:31:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BZ00000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/47e85d/32.png) [@BZ00000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BZ00000)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2002, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-books-middle-earth-possible-spoilers/137788/1 "2002-11-20T19:31:17Z")
What is the relation of Middle Earth to the Earth we live on? Is this discussed in the books? Please warn if your answer gives away something in the book. ---
**Author:** ![Banger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@Banger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banger)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2002, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-books-middle-earth-possible-spoilers/137788/2 "2002-11-20T19:41:19Z")
They’re the same place. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2002, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-books-middle-earth-possible-spoilers/137788/3 "2002-11-20T19:46:31Z")
No, they aren’t. Seen any elves lately? ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Just\_Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2002, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-books-middle-earth-possible-spoilers/137788/4 "2002-11-20T19:50:43Z")
Some people like to say that Middle Earth is our Earth in the distant past. Tolkien did not support that idea from what I’ve read (I recall seeing something about him being amused at the concept when it was raised to him). Personally, I think it’s got the same relationship with Earth as Never Never Land and Oz do. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Luvvy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/47e85d/32.png) [@Luvvy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Luvvy)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2002, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-books-middle-earth-possible-spoilers/137788/5 "2002-11-20T19:54:30Z")
I saw something about this on someone’s LOTR site. I was very interesting----BUT---- I can’t remember where the site is. Anyway, they took the map of Middlw Earth and somehow fixed it over the earth to compare . If you put the Shire in approximately where London is, Mordor would be about where Albania/Macedonia is today. Minas Tirith would be about where Venice is. I was doing a search on maps of Middle Earth when I ran across this site. They have a map of ME superimposed over a map of Europe so you can visualize the distances involved. If I could put up a picture, I would post it. I saved it to my 'puter for reference while reading the books. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2002, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-books-middle-earth-possible-spoilers/137788/6 "2002-11-20T20:00:48Z")
Tolkien _made up a mythology_, principally to amuse himself, that was supposed to be sited in the Northwest of the Old World of Earth at a point significantly in the past that coastlines and mountain ranges have changed in the interim. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2002, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-books-middle-earth-possible-spoilers/137788/7 "2002-11-20T20:15:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ethilrist \* > \*\*No, they aren’t. Seen any elves lately? \*\* What does that matter? The book continually makes mention of the fact that the age of men is coming, and that of dwarves, elves, et. al are fading and dying away. ---
**Author:** ![Samui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/41988e/32.png) [@Samui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Samui)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2002, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-books-middle-earth-possible-spoilers/137788/8 "2002-11-20T20:29:11Z")
This question is very clearly answered in _The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien_ He says something to effect of “Middle-Earth is not so much an imaginary place as it is an imaginary time.” Read _Letters_. It’s really good! ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2002, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-books-middle-earth-possible-spoilers/137788/9 "2002-11-20T22:09:29Z")
Read Book of Lost Tales V. I-II and you’ll see how middle-earth fit into the world as we know it. Mythically, basically. Tol Eressea was to become England in his original concept, but for that it was going to be towed back to middle-earth from the Blessed Realm ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2002, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-books-middle-earth-possible-spoilers/137788/10 "2002-11-20T22:54:09Z")
(Letter #211, To Rhona Beare, 14 October 1958) > [@](#): > > I have, I suppose, constructed an imaginary time, but kept my feet on my own mother-earth for place… Middle-earth is (by the way & if such a note is necessary) not my own invention. It is a modernization or alteration (N [ew] E [nglish] D [ictionary]) a perversion of an old word for the inhabited world of Men, the oikoumene: middle because thought of vaguely as set amidst the encircling seas and (in the northern-imagination) between ice of the North and fire of the South. O. English middan-geard, mediaeval E. miden-erd, middle-erd. Many reviewers seem to assume that Middle-earth is another planet! ---
**Author:** ![FlyingDragonFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c89c15/32.png) [@FlyingDragonFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingDragonFan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2002, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-books-middle-earth-possible-spoilers/137788/11 "2002-11-20T23:33:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Luvvy \* > If I could put up a picture, I would post it. I saved it to my 'puter for reference while reading the books. Is [this](http://people.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~lalaith/Tolkien/M-e_Euro.jpg) the map you’re talking about? It’s a little tough to read, but there ya go. ---
**Author:** ![5\_time\_champ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/278dde/32.png) [@5\_time\_champ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5_time_champ)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2002, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-books-middle-earth-possible-spoilers/137788/12 "2002-11-21T01:09:34Z")
It has been pointed out, however, that Mirkwood and Fangorn Forest are on the wrong side of Misty Mountains. Great forests tend to be on the _windward_ side of great mountain ranges, as opposed to the _leeward_ as it would appear to be in Middle-Earth. Given that the sun rises in the east, and sets in the west in Middle-Earth as it does on Planet Earth. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2002, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-books-middle-earth-possible-spoilers/137788/13 "2002-11-21T01:18:33Z")
I remember Aragorn said something about how he had travelled all over Middle Earth, as far as Rhun (or was it Harad?) “where the stars are strange”. What does that imply? Rhun looks as if it is on the same latitude as the rest of Middle Earth, and Harad isn’t far enough to the south for that to be the case–unless maybe Middle Earth straddles the equator. ---
**Author:** ![Jerevan\_Somerville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@Jerevan\_Somerville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jerevan_Somerville)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2002, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-books-middle-earth-possible-spoilers/137788/14 "2002-11-21T03:16:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\*Tolkien _made up a mythology_, principally to amuse himself, that was supposed to be sited in the Northwest of the Old World of Earth at a point significantly in the past that coastlines and mountain ranges have changed in the interim. \*\* And the coastlines and such of Middle-Earth themselves changed over the course of the stories in The Silmarillion, didn’t they? ---
**Author:** ![Jerevan\_Somerville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@Jerevan\_Somerville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jerevan_Somerville)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2002, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-books-middle-earth-possible-spoilers/137788/15 "2002-11-21T03:27:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Samui \* > \*\*This question is very clearly answered in _The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien_ He says something to effect of “Middle-Earth is not so much an imaginary place as it is an imaginary time.” \*\* If memory serves, this assertion is supported by the narrator’s comments (to the reader) in the opening sections of The Hobbit, in which it is said that hobbits live in our world, but go to some lengths to stay out of our way. Let me see if I can find the specific passage I’m thinking of… Anyway, my readings have always left me with the overall impression that Middle-Earth exists in some misty, mythical part of our own past, and that some part of that past exists right alongside us today. That’s one of the sadly ironic elements to the conclusion of LOTR: Sauron is destroyed, but the elves also depart Middle-Earth. The world becomes safer, but more ordinary. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2002, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-books-middle-earth-possible-spoilers/137788/16 "2002-11-21T03:54:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jerevan Somerville \* > That’s one of the sadly ironic elements to the conclusion of LOTR: Sauron is destroyed, but the elves also depart Middle-Earth. The world becomes safer, but more ordinary. Regarding this irony, I think a [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=134789&highlight=sauron+melkor) started by **I am Sparticus** on this topic is worth revisiting. From the OP: > [@](#): > > So what is Morgoth’s and Sauron’s rebellion (and Saruman’s treason) about anyway? The end of their power and presence in the world and their desire to order things to their liking. This is a lot like what Galadriel is struggling with and also the Elves in general. So she really is quite right in her statements that she would be setting up herself as a Dark Queen and no different than Sauron. It is Illuvatar’s will that that kind of power be ended, and she submits to it, where Sauron and Saruman are destroyed by refusing to accept and fighting against it. So ultimately the rebellion of Morgoth et al is against the ages of Men and the other power’s capitulation to that idea. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2002, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-books-middle-earth-possible-spoilers/137788/17 "2002-11-21T18:06:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jerevan Somerville \* > \*\*And the coastlines and such of Middle-Earth themselves changed over the course of the stories in The Silmarillion, didn’t they? \*\* Well, there was that little bit where Earendil slew Ancalagon the Black, who fell from the sky; the impact drove the continent of Beleriand beneath the sea… Now _THAT_ is an archer… ---
**Author:** ![Engywook](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bc8723/32.png) [@Engywook](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Engywook)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2002, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-books-middle-earth-possible-spoilers/137788/18 "2002-11-21T18:13:07Z")
I do believe that Middle Earth is the same Sol III that we live on… see, in the Prologue of LOTR (“Concerning Hobbits”) - something to the effect that the few hobbits who are left now live where they have always lived, in the northwest of the old world. Has anybody attempted to fit all of Middle Earth onto England? I’m no geography wiz, but it does look to me like the west coast of Middle Earth looks a lot like the west coast of central England. I’d find it hard to believe that the distances would match (England too small?), but again… One last thought: Tom Bombadil mention something about “the seas being bent” when the Numenoreans tried to sail to the undying realms. Maybe a bit of a reach here, but perhaps the world, in Tolkien mythos, was flat until the fall of Numenor? One way to make the undying realms disappear, but still exist, would be to make the world into a sphere(?) ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2002, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-books-middle-earth-possible-spoilers/137788/19 "2002-11-21T18:54:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ethilrist \* > \*\*Seen any elves lately? \*\* Wasn’t that the point? All of the elves sailed off into the west. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2002, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-books-middle-earth-possible-spoilers/137788/20 "2002-11-21T19:08:10Z")
Engywook and Terminus Est, I’d recommend the first 90% of this thread as recommended reading. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-books-middle-earth-possible-spoilers/137788.md?page=2)