# LOTR: by what sorts of processes did Sauron reconstitute himself and his power after losing the Ring? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [August 30, 2024, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-by-what-sorts-of-processes-did-sauron-reconstitute-himself-and-his-power-after-losing-the-ring/1006493 "2024-08-30T23:48:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2024, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-by-what-sorts-of-processes-did-sauron-reconstitute-himself-and-his-power-after-losing-the-ring/1006493/1 "2024-08-30T23:48:39Z")
We all know the story, from the beginning of the films: at the end of the 2nd Age, the Last Alliance of Elves and Men succeeds in defeating Sauron and his forces, when Isildur cuts the One Ring from his hand. In the film, his metal outfit falls to the ground uninhabited and there is a kind of implosion/explosion that knocks everyone down. The remaining elves and men get up again, I always presumed that the orcs and so on did not, but that isn’t clear. If they do get up, they presumably run away rather than continue being slaughtered by the elves and men. At this point, Sauron is greatly diminished, due to not having the Ring, but he is not dead or dormant. He is somewhere in some sort of noncorporeal state. Over 1000 years later, in the third age, he takes over Dol Guldur. Still, presumably, noncorporeal, but able to exercise some kind of power over his minions. Much later, when he was driven out of Dol Guldur, he had enough strength to make it to his fortress in Mordor, which had been prepared for him. Or perhaps repaired for him. By this time, nearly 3000 years after losing the Ring and become noncorporeal, his power was pretty much in as full flower as it could be without possession of the Ring. So how did he do it, and why did it take so long? Those are my main questions. How does a Maia who has lost so much of himself reconstitute his strength? Does any being help him to do this (as distinct from helping him wreak his evil will on the world)? In his voluminous tomes, does Tolkien answer this crucial question? ---
**Author:** ![We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/We_re_wolves_not_werewolves)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2024, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-by-what-sorts-of-processes-did-sauron-reconstitute-himself-and-his-power-after-losing-the-ring/1006493/2 "2024-08-30T23:58:16Z")
not to be reductive, but I always just thought of it as slowly recovering his strength after a fight that went badly for him. You get beat up in a bar brawl and it might take you a couple weeks or months to recover from the black eye, bruises, and cracked orbital socket you suffered. Same thing with Sauron after getting his beatdown from the last alliance…although in his case it took 3000 or so years. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2024, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-by-what-sorts-of-processes-did-sauron-reconstitute-himself-and-his-power-after-losing-the-ring/1006493/3 "2024-08-31T00:15:47Z")
I don’t know what if anything the Word of Tolkien is on the matter, but the argument I’ve seen in the past is that he took so long to recover because _that_ time, unlike the other times that he’d lost his body his Ring had been taken from him. Since most of his innate power is in the Ring it took him longer to gain form and strength because he was working with the leftovers of his forging of the Ring, essentially. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2024, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-by-what-sorts-of-processes-did-sauron-reconstitute-himself-and-his-power-after-losing-the-ring/1006493/4 "2024-08-31T00:35:42Z")
I think this is treading close to areas where Tolkien never came up with a completely satisfactory and self-consistent idea, but first, Valar and Maiar are essentially non-corporeal. At one point Tolkien says that the Valar’s bodies are like “raiment” to humans, to be worn or changed at will. But there also seem to be some limitations, especially when violence is involved. For example, after Fingolfin injured Morgoth’s foot in their duel, it is said that Morgoth “went ever halt of one foot after that day and the pain of his wounds could not be healed.” And when Sauron himself was caught in the Downfall of Numenor, it is said that “he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men.” But “his spirit” returned to Middle-Earth and “he took up again his great Ring” and “wrought himself a new guise”, which seems to imply it was a somewhat long and arduous process, not like just throwing on a new garment. Regarding Sauron’s defeat by Elendil and Gil-Galad at the end of the Second Age, _Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age_ says that he “was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years.” There is no description of the exact process whereby this happened. My impression is it was partly a deliberate decision of his not to reincarnate immediately. But when he did take on a new body, it was certainly done by himself alone, not with the aid of anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![jnglmassiv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f07891/32.png) [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2024, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-by-what-sorts-of-processes-did-sauron-reconstitute-himself-and-his-power-after-losing-the-ring/1006493/5 "2024-08-31T00:59:39Z")
> [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](#): > > You get beat up in a bar brawl and it might take you a couple weeks or months to recover from the black eye, bruises, and cracked orbital socket you suffered. Is Butterbean ok? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2024, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-by-what-sorts-of-processes-did-sauron-reconstitute-himself-and-his-power-after-losing-the-ring/1006493/6 "2024-08-31T08:09:21Z")
> [@markn\_1](#): > > Regarding Sauron’s defeat by Elendil and Gil-Galad at the end of the Second Age, _Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age_ says that he “was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years.” There is no description of the exact process whereby this happened. My impression is it was partly a deliberate decision of his not to reincarnate immediately. But when he did take on a new body, it was certainly done by himself alone, not with the aid of anyone else. And there is a subtle indication in Return of the King that he might even have tried to do the same thing after the destruction of the Ring, but no longer had the power to maintain even noncorporeal existence: > [@](#): > > And as the captains gazed south to the Land of Mordor, it seemed to them that, black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling all the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell. Presumably that great wind was an act of the Valar, finally smiting Sauron once he was so enfeebled that he could be disposed of without requiring a world-destroying level of smite. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2024, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-by-what-sorts-of-processes-did-sauron-reconstitute-himself-and-his-power-after-losing-the-ring/1006493/7 "2024-08-31T17:48:14Z")
> [@markn\_1](#): > > Regarding Sauron’s defeat by Elendil and Gil-Galad at the end of the Second Age, _Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age_ says that he “was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years.” There is no description of the exact process whereby this happened. My impression is it was partly a deliberate decision of his not to reincarnate immediately. I think this partly answers a better question that I didn’t ask – why did he suddenly de-corporealize when the ring was cut from his hand? If he had voluntarily taken the ring off within the safety of his fortress, would it have had the same effect? Or was it being the result of enemy violence (as in your earlier mention of Morgoth’s foot) that made the difference? With the ring still in existence, I would have expected his physical body to suddenly become smaller and vulnerable, which would make sense of his decision (if so it was) to forsake his body and flee as a spirit, lest he be captured. I realize this too has probably not been specified by Tolkien. I usually don’t read a lot of fiction based on magic, because there’s just too much of a _deus ex machina_ feel about them, especially at crisis points. Tolkien’s work is more satisfying in this respect (as in many others) so sometimes I find myself looking for answers that were never set down. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2024, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-by-what-sorts-of-processes-did-sauron-reconstitute-himself-and-his-power-after-losing-the-ring/1006493/8 "2024-08-31T18:05:45Z")
Is Sauron ever truly non-corporeal? He certainly has a body in the LotR books. Gollum meets him when Gollum is being tortured. While the movies never show Sauron as a person after the ring was cut off Sauron was physically walking around after that I think albeit very diminished in power. ETA: When the One Ring is destroyed I think Sauron does become non-corporeal after that. I am not sure he is dead and goes to the Halls of Mandos but he is an impotent spirit. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2024, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-by-what-sorts-of-processes-did-sauron-reconstitute-himself-and-his-power-after-losing-the-ring/1006493/9 "2024-08-31T18:09:14Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Is Sauron ever truly non-corporeal? If you read @markn_1’s post above, he quotes that Sauron “forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away…” which is marked in the movie by the sort of implosion I mentioned in the OP and Sauron’s helmet dropping empty to the ground. That seems pretty strong evidence that he was non-corporeal at that moment. Also, when Gollum met Sauron in Mordor, that was some 3000 years later. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2024, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-by-what-sorts-of-processes-did-sauron-reconstitute-himself-and-his-power-after-losing-the-ring/1006493/10 "2024-08-31T18:14:34Z")
Sauron was a shapeshifter. Maybe that plays into it? He is a spirit in essence like other Maiar but can change forms (which seemed a unique ability to him). Maybe he could go all spirit and then form a new physical body. (I am just guessing now.) ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2024, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-by-what-sorts-of-processes-did-sauron-reconstitute-himself-and-his-power-after-losing-the-ring/1006493/11 "2024-08-31T19:58:16Z")
I don’t think Sauron’s ability to change forms was unique to him. The Silmarillion says “the Maiar have seldom appeared in form visible to Elves and Men” and says of Olorin (Gandalf) that “though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them”. This seems to imply that the Maiar can change their form, or at least change how they are perceived, like the Valar, who are in essence similar to the Maiar, just of greater power. The Valar “took shape” when they entered the world, but “they need it not, save only as we use raiment, and yet we may be naked and suffer no loss of our being. Therefore the Valar may walk, if they will, unclad, then even the Eldar cannot clearly perceive them… But the shapes wherein the Great Ones array themselves are not at all times like to the shapes of the kings and queens of the Children of Iluvatar [Elves and Men]; for at times they may clothe themselves in their own thought, made visible in forms of majesty and dread.” ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2024, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-by-what-sorts-of-processes-did-sauron-reconstitute-himself-and-his-power-after-losing-the-ring/1006493/12 "2024-08-31T20:06:09Z")
I’m not so sure. The Maiar seemed to choose a form when entering Middle-Earth and then stuck with it. We do not see Gandalf changing shapes (or any of the wizards). Balrogs stay Balrogs. More, there seems to be attention paid to Sauron being able to change shape. And even for him, he doesn’t do it often. Not like he can poof into whatever he wants, whenever he wants. But he does do it when (AFAIK) no one else ever does. I assume the Valar can do whatever they want but don’t usually bother because they rarely go walkabout in ME. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2024, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-by-what-sorts-of-processes-did-sauron-reconstitute-himself-and-his-power-after-losing-the-ring/1006493/13 "2024-08-31T20:21:31Z")
We don’t actually see Gandalf change shape in LotR (or The Hobbit), but “he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them” at least strongly implies that he has done so in the past. ---
**Author:** ![caligulathegod](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/caligulathegod/32/9685_2.png) [@caligulathegod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/caligulathegod)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2024, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-by-what-sorts-of-processes-did-sauron-reconstitute-himself-and-his-power-after-losing-the-ring/1006493/14 "2024-08-31T21:14:31Z")
Olorin had that power back in Valinor, but his mission as an Istari was specific. He was sent back as essentially a human, albeit one who aged far more slowly, but with all the weaknesses and frailties of humans. Coming back as Gandalf the White was a special occurrence by Eru Ilúvatar. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2024, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-by-what-sorts-of-processes-did-sauron-reconstitute-himself-and-his-power-after-losing-the-ring/1006493/15 "2024-09-01T00:11:59Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > The Maiar seemed to choose a form when entering Middle-Earth and then stuck with it. We do not see Gandalf changing shapes (or any of the wizards). Balrogs stay Balrogs. The shapes they take can “harden” over time for various reasons. rending their shape-changing ability weaker or nonexistent. The wizards were sent with imposed limits, Sauron lost the ability to “take a fair form” after being caught in the destruction of Númenor; the Balrogs likely invested so much of themselves into being living weapons they lost the ability to change to anything else. The latter being a running theme of the setting, investing your power in permanent effects causes a permanent loss of ability, such as Melkor degenerating into the much weaker Morgoth as he invested his power into corrupting the world. By that argument the Balrogs invested much of their original power into becoming physical powerhouses, at the cost of losing the ability to become something else. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2024, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-by-what-sorts-of-processes-did-sauron-reconstitute-himself-and-his-power-after-losing-the-ring/1006493/16 "2024-09-01T03:00:20Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > investing your power in permanent effects causes a permanent loss of ability It’s interesting to carry this analysis to Sauron’s power investments. His power is responsible for maintaining the black gates and Barad Dur, apparently (since they fall into the ground on his demise). He has a lot of vassals and lieutenants, I’m not sure if controlling them counts as a permanent effect, but I would say not, controlling other beings seems to me to count as part of his native power profile. The main thing he invested in is, of course, the Ring. The Ring is an instrument of control, but the control it was designed to exercise was over the other rings of power that he had helped forge. It is also a repository of a large part of his innate power (as well as his cruelty, his malice, and his will to dominate), and that seems separate from its control function. Making it did not seem to diminish his power, as long as he wore it. So it seems materially different from the effects on Morgoth of his power investments. Morgoth can be said to have spread himself too thin. Perhaps we can say that Sauron concentrated too much of himself into one object. Both approaches had unintended consequences (perhaps thanks to Eru). Well, this is an interesting exercise. Sadly, I don’t think I’m any closer to understanding the ability of Sauron to grow from a weak and damaged spirit, when the Ring was cut from his hand, to having the power to almost defeat the west even without the Ring. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2024, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-by-what-sorts-of-processes-did-sauron-reconstitute-himself-and-his-power-after-losing-the-ring/1006493/17 "2024-09-01T03:40:43Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > His power is responsible for maintaining the black gates and Barad Dur, apparently (since they fall into the ground on his demise). The Barad-dûr part is canon; the Ring was used to make its foundations, and much like Sauron himself they couldn’t be destroyed as long as the Ring existed (an interesting example of how the Ring clearly has abilities we never see used “on screen”). Barad-dûr was razed after the War of the Last Alliance, but the foundations remained and when Sauron returned he rebuilt his fortress on them. Once the Ring was destroyed however Barad-dûr could no longer sustain itself and collapsed. ---
**Author:** ![Pavelb1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/439d5e/32.png) [@Pavelb1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pavelb1)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2024, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-by-what-sorts-of-processes-did-sauron-reconstitute-himself-and-his-power-after-losing-the-ring/1006493/18 "2024-09-01T05:13:11Z")
Similarly, Saruman upon dying seemed to “Plaintively look to the west but then dissipated”…Thats my paraphrasing. If the Rings of Power thread is still going ill state my objections there to a similar subject ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2024, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-by-what-sorts-of-processes-did-sauron-reconstitute-himself-and-his-power-after-losing-the-ring/1006493/19 "2024-09-01T05:27:56Z")
> [@Pavelb1](#): > > Similarly, Saruman upon dying seemed to “Plaintively look to the west but then dissipated”…Thats my paraphrasing. So, did neither Sauron nor Saruman actually die and end up in the Halls of Mandos? (I thought all things that die end up there except humans…unclear about humans though) ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2024, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-by-what-sorts-of-processes-did-sauron-reconstitute-himself-and-his-power-after-losing-the-ring/1006493/20 "2024-09-01T05:32:07Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > So, did neither Sauron nor Saruman actually die and end up in the Halls of Mandos? I believe that, in both cases, their spirits were barred from heading west, but I’m failing to quickly find any specific references to Tolkien clarifying this in his writings outside of the novels. > [@](#): > > Saruman, who was a Maia, had lost his shape with his “death”. As a discorporate spirit, he turned westward, but a wind came from the [West](https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/West) and pushed him away. Apparently his spirit was left naked, powerless, and wandering in Middle-earth, not unlike Sauron after the One Ring was destroyed. > **[Saruman](https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Saruman#War_of_the_Ring)** > > Saruman the White was the first of the order of Wizards (or Istari) who came to Middle-earth as Emissaries of the Valar in the Third Age. For a time he was the chief... > [@](#): > > Sauron’s spirit emerged and rose above Mordor like a black cloud - he stretched out his hand towards the army of the West, but even as he did so, he was blown away by a great wind and vanished. > [@](#): > > Sauron’s corporeal body that was in the Dark Tower died, and without the Ring his spirit no longer had the power to create a new one. Though his indestructible mind and being were bound forever to Eä, Sauron had lost all power to effect his will upon the worldand could never again grow in strength. > **[Sauron](https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Sauron#The_War_of_the_Ring)** > > Sauron was a highly gifted Maia, originally an apprentice of Aulë, who became skilled at crafting and making. Coveting the power through which he would coordinate... [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-by-what-sorts-of-processes-did-sauron-reconstitute-himself-and-his-power-after-losing-the-ring/1006493.md?page=2)