# LOTR: Did the Balrogs enter Middle Earth as monstrous demons? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth, books-writing-myths\ **Created:** [August 18, 2021, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-the-balrogs-enter-middle-earth-as-monstrous-demons/949062 "2021-08-18T03:54:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-the-balrogs-enter-middle-earth-as-monstrous-demons/949062/21 "2021-08-19T15:06:48Z")
Yeah…if Balrogs are never shown flying and fall off things (as happened with Gandalf at the bridge of Khazad-dûm) then it is hard to think they have wings. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-the-balrogs-enter-middle-earth-as-monstrous-demons/949062/22 "2021-08-19T15:11:22Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > if Balrogs are never shown flying and fall off things (as happened with Gandalf at the bridge of Khazad-dûm) then it is hard to think they have wings. Or, maybe, they’re just enormous fiery demonic penguins, with stubby wings. 😃 [![](https://i.pinimg.com/550x/e7/67/75/e76775a9d2393a4d9636421e418260f7.jpg) ](https://i.pinimg.com/550x/e7/67/75/e76775a9d2393a4d9636421e418260f7.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-the-balrogs-enter-middle-earth-as-monstrous-demons/949062/23 "2021-08-19T16:06:40Z")
My own personal theory (for what its worth, which is probably not even a tharni), is that some elements of the story, like Tom Bombadil, are inclusions from other myth cycles. Tolkien was creating a synthetic epic myth cycle, akin to the Norse Eddas, the Celtic Mabinogion, or the Finnish Kalevala. But real world myths grow organically, and are formed from syncretic mergers of different myths, and include bits and pieces from older myth cycles, or intrusions from later myth cycles, or later cultural encounters with other myth cycles. In that reading, I think Tom Bombadil and Goldberry and Old Man Willow are inclusions from a different, smaller scale folklore tradition, and the two mythic traditions don’t quite mesh. Hence Tom’s indifference to the One Ring. I think Hobbits would also be part of that same folklore tradition, but they’ve been more tightly incorporated into the Silmarillion cycle, but still incompletely - they just kind of show up in the story part way through. By that reading, the Balrogs may also originally be from a different myth cycle, and have only been partially integrated into the Silmarillion cycle, where they’ve been syncretized as a kind of Maiar, but don’t _quite_ fit. Or not. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-the-balrogs-enter-middle-earth-as-monstrous-demons/949062/24 "2021-08-19T18:06:05Z")
Even though it has nothing to do with Balrogs, I like to share this whenever Tolkien pops up. Not my work: [Oldest and Fatherless: The Terrible Secret of Tom Bombadil - Loose Connections — LiveJournal](https://km-515.livejournal.com/1042.html) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-the-balrogs-enter-middle-earth-as-monstrous-demons/949062/25 "2021-08-19T20:23:23Z")
My take is that balrogs do absolutely literally have wings, but that those wings are literally composed of shadow. And while wings of shadow might be useful for a spirit creature, they’re not so useful for a corporeal embodiment, beyond spreading them out to look more intimidating. So they can still fall to their (corporeal) deaths. And if one absolutely must fit in Bombadil with the other parts of the legendarium, I favor the interpretation that he’s the fae embodiment of the World as a whole (as compared, say, to Ungoliant, the embodiment of Darkness, or Goldberry’s father, the embodiment of one particular river). But that’s only if I absolutely must fit him in. The explanation I favor is that he’s just a member of the category of “beings who are Tom Bombadil”, and that there’s nobody else qualitatively like him. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-the-balrogs-enter-middle-earth-as-monstrous-demons/949062/26 "2021-08-19T20:25:36Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > Don’t sweat it. Of as a verb is fine (if informal). Except it is more properly spelled `'ve`. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-the-balrogs-enter-middle-earth-as-monstrous-demons/949062/27 "2021-08-19T20:27:51Z")
Says who? And why do you believe them? I’ve been thinking about starting a grammar thread. Might be time. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-the-balrogs-enter-middle-earth-as-monstrous-demons/949062/28 "2021-08-19T21:22:27Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > For shame, **WE** ; you mods are supposed to set a good grammatical example for the rest of us! Only when writing _ex cathedra_ (which I am not here). Besides which I hate picking grammar nits. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-the-balrogs-enter-middle-earth-as-monstrous-demons/949062/29 "2021-08-19T21:25:53Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Only when writing _ex cathedra_ (which I am not here). Ex Caecilius? (Or did we stop doing Cecil jokes?) ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2021, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-the-balrogs-enter-middle-earth-as-monstrous-demons/949062/30 "2021-08-20T01:36:21Z")
One does not simply stop making Cecil jokes… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2021, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-the-balrogs-enter-middle-earth-as-monstrous-demons/949062/31 "2021-08-20T06:48:23Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > My fanwank is that he could no longer look human(oid) and had to take some primordial form of pure (and terrifying, even if it was a good maiar) energy. Would he still have fingers if he was pure energy? > Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough,’ said Gollum shuddering. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2021, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-the-balrogs-enter-middle-earth-as-monstrous-demons/949062/32 "2021-08-20T06:54:01Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > if Balrogs are never shown flying > Balrogs lurked still, awaiting ever the return of their Lord; and now swiftly they arose, and passing over Hithlum they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire. > _Silmarillion_ Now, if they were not literally flying, and it was used metaphorically, that would read “through Hithlum”, surely? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2021, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-the-balrogs-enter-middle-earth-as-monstrous-demons/949062/33 "2021-08-20T18:38:45Z")
Have you never heard the phrase, “over hill and dale”? It does not mean to fly over those things. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2021, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-the-balrogs-enter-middle-earth-as-monstrous-demons/949062/34 "2021-08-20T19:36:16Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > > > My fanwank is that he could no longer look human(oid) and had to take some primordial form of pure (and terrifying, even if it was a good maiar) energy. > > Would he still have fingers if he was pure energy? Sure. Why not? We know he had an eye (or something like an eye). ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2021, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-the-balrogs-enter-middle-earth-as-monstrous-demons/949062/35 "2021-08-20T21:25:16Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Have you never heard the phrase, “over hill and dale”? > > It does not mean to fly over those things. I’m very familiar with it, since it comes from my favourite play. In the original context, it very much _did_ mean that, given it was a fairy saying it. > [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > Sure. Why not? We have very different ideas of what “pure energy” means. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2021, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-the-balrogs-enter-middle-earth-as-monstrous-demons/949062/36 "2021-08-20T21:28:26Z")
Not really interested in nitpickery. Pure whatever demigods are made of. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2021, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-the-balrogs-enter-middle-earth-as-monstrous-demons/949062/37 "2021-08-20T21:50:03Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’m very familiar with it, since it comes from my favourite play. In the original context, it very much _did_ mean that, given it was a fairy saying it. A lot of people seem to use it when riding and not flying: - [Over Hill and Dale](https://ridewithgps.com/ambassador_routes/1018-over-hill-and-dale?lang=en) - [Over Hill and Dale Endurance Ride](http://nebula.wsimg.com/39992aae9c96e7202517b3bfe031e666?AccessKeyId=1DD91AAE88E82489F2F9&disposition=0&alloworigin=1) - [Over Hill and Dale Endurance Ride](https://www.motdra.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/2018OverHillAndDale.pdf) [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/yl1P2MXvZ18/maxresdefault.jpg "Over Hill & Dale 50 Mile Endurance Ride") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yl1P2MXvZ18) [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/yTCPnIFcfXU/hqdefault.jpg "O'er Hill And Dale (1933)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTCPnIFcfXU) [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/xnmkb_HhQMk/hqdefault.jpg "Carcassonne: Over Hill and Dale Review - with Sam Healey") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnmkb_HhQMk) [![](https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91uklhwmevL.jpg) ](https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91uklhwmevL.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2021, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-the-balrogs-enter-middle-earth-as-monstrous-demons/949062/38 "2021-08-21T07:06:55Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > A lot of people seem to use it when riding and not flying Sure, _now_. It’s become a figure of speech, but was, AFAICT, original to Shakespeare and fairies who clearly were capable of flying (not necessarily with wings - possibly more like airy spirits) given some of what they’re described as doing. And that doesn’t address the non-existence of an equivalent “over \< Place \>” figure of speech. Or the overall _arose-\>passed over-\>rained down_ arcing motion in the passage. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2021, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-the-balrogs-enter-middle-earth-as-monstrous-demons/949062/39 "2021-08-21T11:54:20Z")
Hmm, every year i read that the angel of death passed over the homes that had the blood of the sacrifice on their portal. We literally refer to the holiday as “Passover”. I’ve never envisioned that as the angel flying above those homes, just skipping them. I realize we all have different cultural touchstones, but “passed over” just means “skipped”, or “didn’t attack” to me. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2021, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-the-balrogs-enter-middle-earth-as-monstrous-demons/949062/40 "2021-08-21T12:17:40Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Hmm, every year i read that the angel of death passed over the homes that had the blood of the sacrifice on their portal. We literally refer to the holiday as “Passover”. I’ve never envisioned that as the angel flying above those homes, just skipping them. In the animated film “Moses, Prince of Egypt” (1998), the angel of death is portrayed as an amorphous river of pale light that came down from the sky and then oozed through the streets and into the front doors of the unmarked houses. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-the-balrogs-enter-middle-earth-as-monstrous-demons/949062.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-the-balrogs-enter-middle-earth-as-monstrous-demons/949062.md?page=3)