# LOTR: Did the Balrogs enter Middle Earth as monstrous demons? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth, books-writing-myths\ **Created:** [August 18, 2021, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-the-balrogs-enter-middle-earth-as-monstrous-demons/949062 "2021-08-18T03:54:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 4\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2021, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-the-balrogs-enter-middle-earth-as-monstrous-demons/949062/61 "2021-08-25T13:25:21Z")
Speculation is he bred them from the same stock that gave rise to the foul beasts. But it is all fuzzy. The origin of orcs is fuzzy. Corrupted broken Elves might have been the root stock. Some clues that orcs live a long time unless killed in battle. Wargs were probably bred from werewolves and these in turn had an ancestor that was a spirit or minor maia. The one vampire mentioned, we nothing much like our movie vampires and yet another evil maia. A hideous, monstrous flying bat-like humanoid. The Oliphants or Mumaks seemed to be a prehistoric Elephant relative. So more reasonable. Shadowfax had a divine ancestor in **Nahar** , the Horse of Oromë. We know little of what exactly Nahar or Huan the hound were. They seem to be the divine representatives of animals though. Horse and Dog respectively. All we know for sure is Huan was said to be immortal. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2021, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-the-balrogs-enter-middle-earth-as-monstrous-demons/949062/62 "2021-08-25T13:44:57Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Wargs were probably bred from werewolves Gandalf seems to make a distinction between the two, talking to Frodo when he first wakes in Rivendell : " Not all his servants and chattels are wraiths! There are orcs and trolls , there are wargs and werewolves;" That doesn’t, of course, necessarily mean the one kind is not a descendant of the other, but personally, I think they’re just super-wolves, like the Eagles are just super-eagles. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2021, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-the-balrogs-enter-middle-earth-as-monstrous-demons/949062/63 "2021-08-25T15:18:27Z")
I’ve never thought that the Balrog had wings. It was only a figure of speech. There was a darkness or ‘dark fire’ around it, which was _compared_ to wings spread out and blocking the light around it. * * * Descriptions: > **What it was could not be seen** : it was **like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form** , of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it. > > It came to the edge of the fire and **the light faded as if a cloud had bent over it**. > The **dark figure streaming with fire** raced towards them. > For a moment the orcs quailed and the **fiery shadow** halted. Then the echoes died as suddenly **as a flame blown out by a dark wind** , and the enemy advanced again. > His enemy halted again, facing him, and **the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings.** > “The **dark fire** will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the **Shadow**!” > It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and **its wings [of shadow] were spread from wall to wall** > With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward, and **its shadow plunged down and vanished**. But even as it fell it swung its whip, and the thongs lashed and curled about the wizard’s knees, dragging him to the brink. * * * Tolkien says the shadow was LIKE wings. If it actually had wings, he certainly wouldn’t say that. He wouldn’t use a simile. He was describing what the shadow was like. The second time he mentions ‘wings’, the fact that they are dark shadows _like_ wings is to be understood. He also used two other similes to describe the phenomenon. It causes the light to fade ‘as if’ a cloud had bent over it, and ‘as a flame blown out by a dark wind’. The darkness or shadow around the Balrog is compared to a cloud, a dark wind, and wings. But ‘what it was could not be seen’. The wings are not literal. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2021, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-the-balrogs-enter-middle-earth-as-monstrous-demons/949062/64 "2021-08-25T16:28:04Z")
We know exactly what Huan was. He was a Good Doggie. A Very Good Doggie, yes he was. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-the-balrogs-enter-middle-earth-as-monstrous-demons/949062.md?page=3)