# LOTR: Did Tolkein invent the races? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 4, 2002, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-tolkein-invent-the-races/112322 "2002-06-04T16:08:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![funkynige](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@funkynige](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/funkynige)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2002, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-tolkein-invent-the-races/112322/1 "2002-06-04T16:08:46Z")
I’ve heard of many games and books that are said to be based in the Tolkein Universe of Dwarves, Orcs, Goblins, etc. But did Tolkein invent these races or did he combine them from other sources? Thanks in advance, ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2002, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-tolkein-invent-the-races/112322/2 "2002-06-04T16:15:01Z")
As far as I know (and I’m no Tolkien expert), J.R.R. Tolkien invented the Hobbits and the Orcs. But elves, dwarves, goblins and dragons had been the stuff of legend in many cultures, centuries before Tolkien was born. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2002, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-tolkein-invent-the-races/112322/3 "2002-06-04T17:00:26Z")
Well, all of them had some basis, often many basises, in myth. Tolkein did make them his own, and put them and the idea of them into his own words, often changing things around. Inclusding the orcs and halflings, actually. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2002, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-tolkein-invent-the-races/112322/4 "2002-06-04T17:52:36Z")
Elves: based on the Alfar of Norse mythology. Much tougher customers than those found in Santa’s workshop. Dwarves: based on Norse and other Germanic mythologies. In legend it was Dwarvish smiths who forged Thor’s hammer and the Ring of the Nibelungs (see the _Nibelungenlied_ and Wagner’s _Ring_ operas for details). Trolls: common monsters in the folklore of many European countries. Remember the Three Billy Goats Gruff? Orcs: the name comes from an Old English or Middle English word meaning “man”. The race was JRRT’s own invention, but resemble the ogres and trolls of European folklore. Also with a nod to the Svartalfen (dark elves) of Norse mythology. Hobbits: JRRT’s own creation, but similar to the brownies of English folklore and the leprechauns of Irish myth. Nearly every country has some form of “little people” in its lore. ---
**Author:** ![Threadkiller](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aca169/32.png) [@Threadkiller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Threadkiller)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2002, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-tolkein-invent-the-races/112322/5 "2002-06-04T18:43:19Z")
And the Ents? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Griffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_Griffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Griffin)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2002, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-tolkein-invent-the-races/112322/6 "2002-06-04T19:31:25Z")
Hobbits are nothing like Leprechauns! Leprechauns are EVIL!!! ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2002, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-tolkein-invent-the-races/112322/7 "2002-06-04T20:40:29Z")
Ents: Offhand, I don’t know of any direct mythological sources. But many pre-Christian cultures believed that inanimate objects had conscious souls. The Greek dryads and river-gods, for instance. _The Wizard of Oz_ has some Ent-like trees in it. Either _Alice in Wonderland_ or _Through the Looking-Glass_ has some talking flowers in it. I think that they both pre-date Tolkien. And leprechauns are only evil in cheesy B-movies. Don’t try to steal their pot of gold, and they are harmless. Usually. But, then, griffins have been known to get rather possessive about gold themselves. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2002, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-tolkein-invent-the-races/112322/8 "2002-06-05T06:59:04Z")
> [@](#): > > Elves: based on the Alfar of Norse mythology. Much tougher customers than those found in Santa’s workshop. I take it you’ve never read _The Father Christmas Letters_, also by the esteemed professor? I can assure you, the Elves in Santa’s workshop are every bit as tough as those in Middle Earth. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2002, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-tolkein-invent-the-races/112322/9 "2002-06-05T20:19:40Z")
Chronos: I’ve seen a few of them reproduced in _J.R.R. Tolkien: Artist & Illustrator_, by Wayne G. Hammond and Christina Scull. I regret to say, however, that I have yet to read the whole collection. Still…{sniff}I thought Polar Bear was the real muscle of the outfit{/sniff} 😉 Back to the Ents: I just remembered-the Green Man. I am woefully ignorant about this. According to a book I once read, a common decorative motif in medieval architecture was the Green Man: either a group of leaves, arranged to suggest a human face; or, less subtly, a man’s face, with hair and beard composed of foliage. I have no idea what the folklore is behind this, but I would be willing to bet that the Green Man is Treebeard’s great-great-great granddaddy. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-tolkein-invent-the-races/112322/10 "2002-06-06T06:42:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Orcs: the name comes from an Old English or Middle English word meaning “man”. The race was JRRT’s own invention, but resemble the ogres and trolls of European folklore. Also with a nod to the Svartalfen (dark elves) of Norse mythology. As a footnote to this, John Milton used the word “orc” in Paradise Lost to refer to a creature called “grampus”, which is believed to be a killer whale. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-tolkein-invent-the-races/112322/11 "2002-06-06T06:51:10Z")
_Orc_ comes from the Latin _orcus_(_Ogre_ apparently comes from the same source). Tolkien used it as a synonym for _goblin_. ---
**Author:** ![Fretburner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fretburner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretburner)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2002, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-tolkein-invent-the-races/112322/12 "2002-06-08T01:48:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Smapti \* > \*\* > > As a footnote to this, John Milton used the word “orc” in Paradise Lost to refer to a creature called “grampus”, which is believed to be a killer whale. \*\* Not for nothing, but isn’t “Orka” the proper name for a killer whale? ---
**Author:** ![Etherman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/958977/32.png) [@Etherman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Etherman)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2002, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-tolkein-invent-the-races/112322/13 "2002-06-08T07:26:19Z")
all cites from [pantheon.org](http://www.pantheon.org) -very, very highly recommended, check it out. [Orcs](http://www.pantheon.org/articles/o/orc.html) [Goblins](http://www.pantheon.org/articles/g/goblin.html) [Dwarves](http://www.pantheon.org/articles/d/dwarf.html) [Dragons](http://www.pantheon.org/articles/d/dragon.html) [Elves](http://www.pantheon.org/articles/e/elf.html) [Ogres](http://www.pantheon.org/articles/o/ogre.html) [and Green Man](http://www.pantheon.org/articles/g/green_man.html) They have much more. **smapti** and **fretburner** you seem to be correct there, as **orc** seems to originally mean a large sea creature. You have no idea how bad I have wanted to introduce that site here, I just didn’t have a reason.😃 ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2002, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-did-tolkein-invent-the-races/112322/14 "2002-06-08T15:53:40Z")
Hmmm. Skimmed those cites, but must say I’m dubious about this comment in the [Goblin](http://www.pantheon.org/articles/g/goblin.html) listing: > [@](#): > > The name ‘hobgoblin’ is thought to be an abbreviation of ‘Robin Goblin’, the name Druids gave to the first goblins when they entered Britain. Considering a) that the Druids likely spoke a form of Brythonic Celtic (i.e. - early Welsh or Gaulic) and b) “Robin” is contraction of"Robert" a Frankish name, I have my doubts.