# LOTR - Elrond's massive fail **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 14, 2010, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-elronds-massive-fail/550243 "2010-08-14T13:52:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-elronds-massive-fail/550243/21 "2010-08-14T17:23:50Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > Who wins - Galadriel or Elrond, in a straight-up fight with no One Ring interference? Elrond’s ring is supposedly Mightiest, but Galadriel is arguably the most powerful Elf in Middle Earth. Arguably because she had seen the light of the Trees and was among the oldest? Elrond was part Maia a descendant of Melian through Luthien. In any event, Elrond taking the ring by force and murder would have started another series of events like his ancestor Thingol wrongly demanding the Silmarillion as a bride price. Elrond didn’t make those kinds of mistakes, which is what makes him Elrond. Also, on edit, it was Elrond who was entitled to claim the title of High King of the Noldor if he choose to do so. Significantly, he didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-elronds-massive-fail/550243/22 "2010-08-14T17:27:32Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > I disagree. The fact that Gandalf, Saruman, and others know as much as they do about the workings of the Ring implies that they have checked Sauron’s research. Unless you are saying that they consulted with Aule, which I doubt for several reasons you can guess at. > > > > ETA: Also, I think the simple fact that the ring inscription exists in the first place may indicate that part of its magic requires writing down. > > Gandalf and Saruman could have easily consulted with Celebrimbor in Mandos before coming over to Middle Earth. Saruman more than Gandalf, I think; he was the expert on Ring lore. And I’m not sure how much of their previous lives they recalled. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-elronds-massive-fail/550243/23 "2010-08-14T17:28:36Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > OK, I’ll bite. What research, where and when, and also why (other than the usual determined hands-offedness of the Valar) couldn’t the Istari consult with Aule? My thought here is that the Valar were mostly divorced from the affairs of Middle-earth and its peoples by that point. History had progressed past the point that they knew what was supposed to happen; and they never fully understood the nature of the Children of Iluvatar anyway. Plus, except for Ulmo, they were a bunch of feckless wankers anyway. > [@](#): > > The inscription being an integral part of the magic is an interesting point. I mostly pulled that out of my ass, as the Perfesser says but little about the mechanics of magic (not being Piers Anthony, thank Zeus!). But I just can’t see Sauron putting the inscription on the Ring for the hell of it. He had to say the words aloud; perhaps it was necessary for the One Ring to have the words physically attached to them as well. Pulling still more crap from my colon, I will bet that, if we had ever seen the Nine & the Seven Rings thrown into a fire, we would have found similar Black Speech writings on them. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-elronds-massive-fail/550243/24 "2010-08-14T18:12:59Z")
**Qadgop** , thanks for that website! **Skald** , in _Black_ Speech? Don’t see how Sauron could have sneaked that in without Celebrimbor seeing it. **Stone** , to offset his Maia studliness, Elrond also had mortal ancestry through Beren. So I think it evens out. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-elronds-massive-fail/550243/25 "2010-08-14T18:29:40Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > The fact that Gandalf, Saruman, and others know as much as they do about the workings of the Ring implies that they have checked Sauron’s research. Or perhaps they extrapolated from the knowledge the Elves used to create the Three. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-elronds-massive-fail/550243/26 "2010-08-14T18:36:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Who wins - Galadriel or Elrond, in a straight-up fight with no One Ring interference? Elrond’s ring is supposedly Mightiest, but Galadriel is arguably the most powerful Elf in Middle Earth. Galadriel vs. anyone short of a Vala, my money’s on Galadriel. Even among those who saw the light of the Trees, she was still remarkable. **Oy!** , I agree with you about it ultimately being the Ring that caused its own destruction, but I would phrase it a little differently. The Ring has malice, but I’m not sure that it can be properly said to have volition. It’s not that it _chooses_ to betray its master, or to corrupt commands, but that betrayal and corruption is part of its nature. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-elronds-massive-fail/550243/27 "2010-08-14T18:56:55Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > **Qadgop** , thanks for that website! > > **Skald** , in _Black_ Speech? Don’t see how Sauron could have sneaked that in without Celebrimbor seeing it. He clearly sneaked something into the 7 & 9 without their knowledge, as both those sets of Rings were subservient to the One. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-elronds-massive-fail/550243/28 "2010-08-14T18:58:00Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Who wins - Galadriel or Elrond, in a straight-up fight with no One Ring interference? Elrond’s ring is supposedly Mightiest, but Galadriel is arguably the most powerful Elf in Middle Earth. > > Galadriel vs. anyone short of a Vala, my money’s on Galadriel. Even among those who saw the light of the Trees, she was still remarkable. I’m thinking that Melian could have eaten Galadriel’s lunch at will. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-elronds-massive-fail/550243/29 "2010-08-14T18:59:25Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > The fact that Gandalf, Saruman, and others know as much as they do about the workings of the Ring implies that they have checked Sauron’s research. > > Or perhaps they extrapolated from the knowledge the Elves used to create the Three. Maybe. But I have the sense that the Three were less like the One than the other sixteen were, if only because Sauron never laid his mitts on them. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-elronds-massive-fail/550243/30 "2010-08-14T19:16:19Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > [@Chronos](#): > > > > Galadriel vs. anyone short of a Vala, my money’s on Galadriel. Even among those who saw the light of the Trees, she was still remarkable. > > I’m thinking that Melian could have eaten Galadriel’s lunch at will. Well sure. But Melian was also a teacher of Galadriel, and a teacher that she could never hope to surpass. Melia was a Maia whose strength grew over the ages. (I wonder how Luthien and Galadriel got along. Like cats in a sack? Best girlfriends?) Galadriel probably became more powerful than _some_ Maiar. She might have been able to take on Saruman, one on one. Per JRRT, Galadriel was the 2nd most powerful of the Children of Iluvatar, after Fëanor. Of course, he never compared her directly to Luthien. Luthien was always a special case… ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-elronds-massive-fail/550243/31 "2010-08-14T19:25:23Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > I’m thinking that Melian could have eaten Galadriel’s lunch at will. > > Well sure. But Melian was also a teacher of Galadriel, and a teacher that she could never hope to surpass. Melia was a Maia whose strength grew over the ages. > > (I wonder how Luthien and Galadriel got along. Like cats in a sack? Best girlfriends?) Not well, I suspect. I seem to recall that it took quite a while for Galadriel, in Doriath, to be forthcoming about what the Noldor had done in coming to Middle-earth; I think would have had such a weight of guilt from that incident that she had difficulty making friends. > [@](#): > > Galadriel probably became more powerful than _some_ Maiar. She might have been able to take on Saruman, one on one. > > Per JRRT, Galadriel was the 2nd most powerful of the Children of Iluvatar, after Fëanor. Of course, he never compared her directly to Luthien. Luthien was always a special case… The Istari were as much a special case than Luthien; they had been purposefully deprived of much of their power and knowledge in being sent to ME as they were. I’m fairly sure that Luthien (ere becoming mortal) was mightier than any of them. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-elronds-massive-fail/550243/32 "2010-08-14T19:57:46Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > [@Oy](#): > > > > **Qadgop** , thanks for that website! > > > > **Skald** , in _Black_ Speech? Don’t see how Sauron could have sneaked that in without Celebrimbor seeing it. > > He clearly sneaked something into the 7 & 9 without their knowledge, as both those sets of Rings were subservient to the One. Yeah, but I think it was less visible than actual writing in Black Speech, which seems to have been inherently and obviously evil. And I understood that the Three ultimately were subservient to the One. Sauron couldn’t see into the minds of their bearers, but if he’d gotten his hands on the One again, couldn’t he eventually have forced the Three to his will? Or was it just that the Three would have abandoned Middle-Earth and sailed into the West, because they could not prevent Sauron from controlling everything else and overcoming the Elves militarily? [QUOTE=Chronos] Oy!, I agree with you about it ultimately being the Ring that caused its own destruction, but I would phrase it a little differently. The Ring has malice, but I’m not sure that it can be properly said to have volition. It’s not that it chooses to betray its master, or to corrupt commands, but that betrayal and corruption is part of its nature. [/QUOTE] I can’t quite wrap my mind around the concept of betrayal and corruption without volition. I don’t think the Ring was terribly bright, but I think it could and did make choices. It chose to slip off Isildur’s finger. It chose to slip away from Gollum. It chose to slip on to Frodo’s finger in The Prancing Pony. It strove to call out to its master against Frodo’s conscious will. It strove to get Frodo to put it on in inappropriate situations, and sometimes succeeded, as at Weathertop. I believe it was volitional. Not sophisticated, but volitional. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-elronds-massive-fail/550243/33 "2010-08-14T20:39:00Z")
Here’s a nice little essay, drawing on JRRT’s writings, as to whether the ring was sentient or not: [DRAGON222: Situs Judi Slot Online Terbaru & Link Slot Gacor Terpercaya Indonesia](http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q1-Sentient) ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-elronds-massive-fail/550243/34 "2010-08-14T21:00:11Z")
I’m pretty sure I’d read that at your recommendation before, **Qadgop** , and it’s that (as well as my own reading of LotR) on which I base my assessment. The internet is a wonderful thing. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-elronds-massive-fail/550243/35 "2010-08-14T21:20:48Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Is it even possible to willingly destroy the ring? Remember that at the end it was more of an oopsie-doopsie than a deliberate act that destroyed the ring. I don’t think it was so much as accident, more the workings of fate, or Gollum’s oath catching up with him. Gollum swore on the ring to obey Frodo. Oath’s have real power in Arda, for example the oath of Feanor couldn’t be undone. I suspect Sam could have willingly destroyed the ring. He was able to reject it’s power once, and unlike Frodo he hadn’t been fighting it directly all the way across Mordor. It generally took time for the ring to corrupt. > [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > My hypothesis: Elrond and Cirdan didn’t fully understand the power of the One Ring. That’s how I see it. They knew enough to know the ring was dangerous, but I don’t think they anticipated that failure to destroy the ring would allow Sauron to rise again, or what the rong could have done to Isildur. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-elronds-massive-fail/550243/36 "2010-08-14T22:15:52Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > I believe it was volitional. Not sophisticated, but volitional. If so, it was not conscious like people. In fact, I rather like to think of it the damned thing as “Sauron’s Liver.” It’s alive. It has a certain function in the world: it filters crap out (i.e., rendering the wearer immaterial), and Sauron couldn’t live without it. It can’t generally choose to do other than what it does, although being a magic, ring-shaped liver it can choose when and how to do it in a very small, unconscious way. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-elronds-massive-fail/550243/37 "2010-08-14T22:51:45Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I left Bombadil out on purpose. He was so detached from mortal concerns that he wouldn’t have understood the need. Says who? > [@](#): > > Remember, at the Council, someone suggests giving the Ring to him, and Elrond specifically dismisses the idea. Well, maybe Elrond ain’t that bright. I mean, whenever _ **we** _ actually see Tom in action, he seems to have a pretty danged firm grasp of mortal concerns: he makes his debut by rescuing trapped hobbits after reassuring folks that he knows how to get the job done, exits the story by equipping our heroes with a good deal of useful stuff, and in between teaches 'em how to summon him if they should ever need more assistance (which they of course do, whereupon he shows up to supply the necessary help). The guy who asks Frodo a lot of relevant questions isn’t detached or even mysterious when explaining that he already knew the hobbits were on their way for to add that he’s been waiting for 'em: he just strikes me as _ **practical,** _ is all. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-elronds-massive-fail/550243/38 "2010-08-14T23:19:43Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Remember, at the Council, someone suggests giving the Ring to him, and Elrond specifically dismisses the idea. I expect that the White Council (Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf, Saruman, and some others I can’t be arsed to look up) had had the discussion of how to destroy the Ring if ever they found it, and the Bombadil option had been mooted ere then. Oh, I remember, of course. I brought in him because of the hypothetical thesis of who _could_ (theoretically) possess the will to destroy the ring. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-elronds-massive-fail/550243/39 "2010-08-14T23:50:26Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > I left Bombadil out on purpose. He was so detached from mortal concerns that he wouldn’t have understood the need. > > Says who? > > > [@](#): > > > > Remember, at the Council, someone suggests giving the Ring to him, and Elrond specifically dismisses the idea. > > Well, maybe Elrond ain’t that bright. I mean, whenever _ **we** _ actually see Tom in action, he seems to have a pretty danged firm grasp of mortal concerns: he makes his debut by rescuing trapped hobbits after reassuring folks that he knows how to get the job done, exits the story by equipping our heroes with a good deal of useful stuff, and in between teaches 'em how to summon him if they should ever need more assistance (which they of course do, whereupon he shows up to supply the necessary help). The guy who asks Frodo a lot of relevant questions isn’t detached or even mysterious when explaining that he already knew the hobbits were on their way for to add that he’s been waiting for 'em: he just strikes me as _ **practical,** _ is all. I’m nowhere near my books, but I point out that Gandalf is also present at this Council, and he clearly agrees with Elrond’s assessment. And I don’t think anyone believes that Gandalf truly liked the idea of Frodo bearing the Ring. Frodo carrying the Ring to Orodruin is like democracy: a terrible idea, but all the other ideas are even worse. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-elronds-massive-fail/550243/40 "2010-08-14T23:58:25Z")
What, Scientology? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-elronds-massive-fail/550243.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-elronds-massive-fail/550243.md?page=3)