# LOTR Ethics and Morals (End-of-story spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 15, 2003, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-ethics-and-morals-end-of-story-spoilers/201817 "2003-09-15T21:54:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-ethics-and-morals-end-of-story-spoilers/201817/21 "2003-09-17T16:29:39Z")
The other recurring theme in LOTR, not mentioned yet, is that of how potent the overlooked and insignificant people of the world really are, and how they succeed where the high and the mighty fail. There’s a line in the book somewhere, about the wheels of the world being turned by small hands, or something like that. Frodo’s quest is the obvious example, but also Who kills the witch-king of Angmar? A woman and a hobbit. ---
**Author:** ![Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misery_Loves_Co)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-ethics-and-morals-end-of-story-spoilers/201817/22 "2003-09-17T16:48:59Z")
erg. . . Good point **NE** - I missed the word “hypothesized”. I change my comment to read “It wouldn’t surprise me a bit if he did” ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-ethics-and-morals-end-of-story-spoilers/201817/23 "2003-09-17T18:36:25Z")
This has been touched on briefly, but I’d like to emphasize it a bit. Allegory is not the same thing as applicability or relevance. Allegory is writing intentionally with allegorical elements bearing a one-to-one relation with the real-life elements they represent. _Animal Farm_ is a good example. When Tolkien says he hates allegory, he means that we shouldn’t look at The Scouring of the Shire and try to decide who Farmer Cotton or Ted Sandyman represent. He does not mean that we shouldn’t understand one of the themes of the chapter (and indeed, of various elements throughout his body of work) to be expressing his distaste for industrialization. On another note, I can’t see PJ messing with the climactic scene on Mount Doom. He’s got to know he’d be taking his life in his hands if he did. Anyways, I don’t see why he would. The success of ROTK is essentially already in the bag, and ruining the ending in order to provide a more hollywood-style hero would only ensure a ton of bad press in the first few weeks of the movie’s run from irate fans. Sadly, the Scouring of the Shire is officially out - word from New Zealand is that no scenes were ever shot. Understandable, given that PJ has left himself with several minutes from TTT to wrap up at the beginning of final installment, and time is likely to be short, but very disappointing for me. It was always my second favourite chapters, after Flotsam and Jetsam (which looks likely to receive short shrift as well, damn the man). ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-ethics-and-morals-end-of-story-spoilers/201817/24 "2003-09-17T18:53:16Z")
Everything I’ve heard indicates that the scouring is out, but they must have filmed _something_ – we see it in Galadriel’s mirror. There may not be much more than we saw, though. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-ethics-and-morals-end-of-story-spoilers/201817/25 "2003-09-17T20:38:27Z")
> [@](#): > > Incidentally, while the Valar are mentioned in LotR, Ilúvatar is not; from knowledge of LotR alone, one might think that Elbereth is the most powerful supernatural entity. Not exactly. There are no _direct_ references to Iluvatar in _LotR_, and none that would be recognized as such without a lot of other reading. But there are at least three indirect references: First, when Gandalf is telling Frodo “Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker”. That implies that that was meant by someone else, and the only being in Tolkien’s mythos with both the power and the subtlety to do so is Iluvatar (this one is debateable). Second, when Gandalf is confronting the Balrog, he describes himself as a servant of the Secret Fire, which is an aspect of Iluvatar, and roughly equivalent to the Holy Spirit. Third, in the Appendices, recounting the deaths of Aragorn and Arwen, Arwen mentions the gift of the One to men. The One, of course, is Iluvatar, and the Gift is death. For that matter, the Valar aren’t mentioned much, either. Elbereth is little more than a name in a song (an Elvish song, so we can’t even derive meaning from context), Morgoth is mentioned by name only in the phrase “A Balrog of Morgoth!”, along with a couple of mentions in old stories of “The Great Enemy”, and Orome’s only mention is in a comparison with Theoden’s last ride, with no indication that he’s supernatural. There’s no other mention of any particular Valar, and only a few very indirect references to the Valar collectively (“and to that which is beyond Elfhome, and which always will be”). ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-ethics-and-morals-end-of-story-spoilers/201817/26 "2003-09-17T21:23:52Z")
Re the Mount Doom scene, from Tolkien’s [letter 246](http://www.americanidea.org/handouts/06240110.htm): > [@](#): > > From the point of view of the storyteller the events on Mt. Doom proceed simply from the logic of the tale up to that time. They were not deliberately worked up to nor foreseen until they occurred.\* But, for one thing, it became at last quite clear that Frodo after all that had happened would be incapable of voluntarily destroying the Ring. > > ``` > *Actually, since the events at the Cracks of Doom would obviously be vital to the Tale, I made several sketches or trial versions at various stages in the narrative - but none of them were used, and none of them much resembled what is actually reported in the finished story. > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-ethics-and-morals-end-of-story-spoilers/201817/27 "2003-09-17T23:28:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Roches \* > \*\* > Incidentally, while the Valar are mentioned in LotR, Ilúvatar is not; from knowledge of LotR alone, one might think that Elbereth is the most powerful supernatural entity. Even so, Tolkien was working on the mythology that led to the Silmarillion well before he began work on LotR, and I cannot imagine that a devout Catholic would have created a polytheistic mythology without having a single, supreme Creator from the beginning. Why, then, is Ilúvatar absent from LotR? Perhaps Tolkien was uncertain that readers would be interested in Elven mythology (which is why the Silmarillion was never completed), and chose to keep it to a minimum. \*\* In addition to the refutations that Chronos lists above, there is also a mention in the appendices–in the description of the downfall of Numenor, there’s a line about the Valar laying down their guardianship of the world, and appealing to the One. I understand your use of the word “mythology”, but of course that’s only from our point of view. For the elves, it’s more than mythology; more than religion, even–it’s just the way things are, since they have had personal contact with the Valar. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-ethics-and-morals-end-of-story-spoilers/201817.md?page=1)