# LOTR fans: Some help with 'The Hobbit', please. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 22, 2004, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-some-help-with-the-hobbit-please/230453 "2004-02-22T02:13:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-some-help-with-the-hobbit-please/230453/1 "2004-02-22T02:13:29Z")
So in my (recent) copy of The Hobbit there’s an acknowledgement from the author mentioning that this edition corrects several small errors blah blah blah… Then it mentions that also included is the ACTUAL tale of how Bilbo got the Ring instead of his initial less-than-truthful first version. So that leads me to a question: Did Tolkein actually have the first version of The Hobbit have a different version of ‘Riddles in the Dark’? If so, was it changed to provide the proper set up for the Lord of the Rings? Call me curious in Ohio… ---
**Author:** ![BuckleberryFerry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5f9b8f/32.png) [@BuckleberryFerry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BuckleberryFerry)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-some-help-with-the-hobbit-please/230453/2 "2004-02-22T02:21:24Z")
Could they be writing from the fictional perspective, where the reader assumes Bilbo is “real” and actually _wrote_ The Hobbit? That would then imply that Bolbo wrote out his version of how he got the Ring (he “won it” “found it” whatever, I can’t recall) rather than the truth that was eventually dragged out of him (he “cheated” to get it from Gollum). We can then assume the “revised” edition was created when Frodo “finished” the Red Book, giving the correct account, which is what we read today. Hope that’s clear. ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-some-help-with-the-hobbit-please/230453/3 "2004-02-22T02:36:25Z")
This rationalization was added later to get it more consistent with LotR. Originally there was a different edition that did not mention contradicting accounts. [http://www.daimi.au.dk/~bouvin/tolkien/changesofhobbit.html](http://www.daimi.au.dk/~bouvin/tolkien/changesofhobbit.html) ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-some-help-with-the-hobbit-please/230453/4 "2004-02-22T02:40:29Z")
Brilliant! Just what I was looking for! Thanks! But dear God above…I wonder what one of the original editions goes for? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-some-help-with-the-hobbit-please/230453/5 "2004-02-22T02:49:56Z")
This isn’t very helpful, but I remember once reading an anthology of fantasy fiction that contained the first version of the “Riddles in the Dark” scene. So I think it is out there and available if you want to read it. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-some-help-with-the-hobbit-please/230453/6 "2004-02-22T03:02:36Z")
All the above is the correct answer, but there’s also a story behind it. Ace Books, under an old management, discovered that enough copies of the British hardcover edition of the Lord of the Rings had been imported here to violate some provision of the copyright law of the time. They thereupon issued “pirated” editions of LOTR and The Hobbit, for which they were not obligated to pay royalties, and of course did not. To copyright the books in America, Tolkien was forced to rewrite some portions of each book so that it could be copyrighted as a new, revised edition. He took the opportunity to bring the storyline of The Hobbit into conformity with the early plotline of LOTR. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-some-help-with-the-hobbit-please/230453/7 "2004-02-22T03:19:46Z")
Hi - For anyone interested in this question please go your library or bookstore and get the big fat annotated edition of the Hobbit. I think it was published last year. It is the best source of info for the question in the original post, plus it has lots of great illustrations from various editions and tidbits about other characters. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-some-help-with-the-hobbit-please/230453/8 "2004-02-22T03:20:28Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > To copyright the books in America, Tolkien was forced to rewrite some portions of each book Hence the reference to “published with my consent and co-operation” rather than _Bored of the Rings_? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-some-help-with-the-hobbit-please/230453/9 "2004-02-22T03:33:41Z")
**Ahem**. In the first edition of The Hobbit, Gollum was portrayed as a much more benign character. > [@](#): > > (Note 25, page 128) The first edition of The Hobbit (1937) contains a significantly different version of [the ‘Riddles in the Dark’] chapter. As Tolkien wrote the sequel, The Lord of the Rings, he found it necessary to revise The Hobbit in order to bring it into line with the sequel. The portrayal of Gollum has been substantially altered; in the first edition, he is not nearly as wretched a creature. And the stakes of the riddle contest are slightly different: It was still Bilbo’s life if he lost, but if he won, Gollum would give him a present. The riddle contest is pretty much the same in both versions, but the conclusion in the earlier version is about half as long as that in later editions. The ending of the early version is given in here and in note 32 to this chapter. From The Annotated Hobbit JRRT had the opportunity to re-write said chapter just before a new edition of The Hobbit was to be printed, and he did so. It was pure serendipity in the timing that got the new material reprinted. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-some-help-with-the-hobbit-please/230453/10 "2004-02-22T03:35:21Z")
More complete info can be found here: [http://www.houghtonmifflinbooks.com/booksellers/press\_release/annohobbit/](http://www.houghtonmifflinbooks.com/booksellers/press_release/annohobbit/) ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-some-help-with-the-hobbit-please/230453/11 "2004-02-22T03:37:27Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > All the above is the correct answer, but there’s also a story behind it…(edited by QtM) > He took the opportunity to bring the storyline of The Hobbit into conformity with the early plotline of LOTR. But that was the 1966 edit by JRRT. The edit in which JRRT turned Gollum into the more malignant character we know and love was printed in 1951. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-some-help-with-the-hobbit-please/230453/12 "2004-02-22T19:08:59Z")
There were a few other changes, as well, to bring _The Hobbit_ more into line with his pre-existing _Silmarillion_ timeline. For instance, at the unexpected party, Gandalf originally asked for “cold chicken and tomatoes” rather than the “cold chicken and pickles” in the updated version, the change being made since tomatoes are a new-world food which would not have been known in the pre-Columbian Third Age Europe. But then again, the pipeweed smoked by Hobbits (and Northmen and Wizards) is presumed to be akin to tobacco, and there _are_ still references to potatoes in _LotR_, both of which are also New World plants. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-some-help-with-the-hobbit-please/230453/13 "2004-02-22T22:10:10Z")
> [@Jonathan Chance](#): > > Brilliant! Just what I was looking for! Thanks! > > But dear God above…I wonder what one of the original editions goes for? A signed first edition recently sold at auction for $66,000. > **[Hobbit 1st Edition Fetches $66,000 at Auction](https://middle-earth.xenite.org/hobbit-1st-edition-fetches-66000-at-auction/)** > >   A first edition copy of J.R.R. Tolkien’s The Hobbit, signed by the author for his aunt, was recently sold at auction for $66,000.Tolkien’s book was sold at the esteemed Sotheby&#… My guess this is about the worst time to buy a copy. Wait until the _His Dark Materials_ films are getting all the hype. Then, try to pick one up for a cool $15,000 or so. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-some-help-with-the-hobbit-please/230453/14 "2004-02-22T23:35:44Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > But then again, the pipeweed smoked by Hobbits (and Northmen and Wizards) is presumed to be akin to tobacco, I always thought it to be an herbal substance we aren’t allowed to speak of on the SDMB. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-some-help-with-the-hobbit-please/230453/15 "2004-02-22T23:42:51Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I always thought it to be an herbal substance we aren’t allowed to speak of on the SDMB. 🙂 I don’t know how serious you were about that. 🙂 Reportedly Tolkien was _not amused_ when he heard about that rumor. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2004, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-some-help-with-the-hobbit-please/230453/16 "2004-02-23T01:17:58Z")
It’s interesting how persistent the pipeweed=marijuana myth is, considering Tolkien specifically identified it as tobacco in _The Lord of the Rings_, in a section of titled “Concerning Pipe-weed”. Since Tolkien gave his pre-Christian Europe a working postal service and clocks on the mantels, he wasn’t above some creative anachronism. He wanted the Shire to be a familiar, comfortable place, and for him that included tobacco and potatoes. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2004, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-some-help-with-the-hobbit-please/230453/17 "2004-02-23T03:06:33Z")
> [@TWDuke](#): > > It’s interesting how persistent the pipeweed=marijuana myth is, Perhaps it had something to do with the 1970’s. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2004, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-some-help-with-the-hobbit-please/230453/18 "2004-02-23T04:11:13Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > They thereupon issued “pirated” editions of LOTR and The Hobbit, for which they were not obligated to pay royalties, and of course did not… Just to add on (and quibble a tiny bit). First, Donald Wollheim, editor of Ace books at the time (and who later went on to found DAW books– **D** onald **A** **W** ollheim…geddit? :D) tried for quite a while to get rights to publish paperback editions (the HCs were, IIRC, a whopping $5.00. _Each_!). Unwin and Allen (or Houghton Mifflin?) refused, thinking that paperbacks were sleazy and beneath Tolkien’s dignity…there also may have been a copyright problem with paperback editions. When Wollheim realized there was the loophole **Poly** mentioned in the copyright laws (I’d never known the details about that loophole! Thanks **Poly**!), he published the so-called (completely legal) “pirate editions” (with spiffy Jack Gaughan covers) on the assumption that when the money started rolling in, Unwin and Allen (or Houghton Mifflin?) would change their minds (and I’ve heard that they held Tolkien’s share in a trust (no cite for this) and apparently Tolkien _did_ get paid for them.) Also note that when the revised and authorized Ballantine edition came out, Ace stopped publication although they didn’t have to (and the Ace ones had better covers…_much_ better covers and an established “track record” so they could have gone on printing them even without the "authorized’ text.) In large part, we have Wollheim to thank for the current popularity of the LotR today. If he hadn’t made 'em accessible to college students ($2.25 for the whole trilogy rather than $15.00 and the popularity got 'em into college bookstores), there’s a pretty good chance that the big '60s Tolkien boom wouldn’t have happened. Fenris ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2004, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-some-help-with-the-hobbit-please/230453/19 "2004-02-23T14:03:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Perhaps it had something to do with the 1970’s. What are you talking about? There were the '60’s and all and then we went straight to the '80’s! What are these so-called intervening years. Ha h! You fanatic loonies probably made up a binch of wierd stuff to go in them. Lousy cultists… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2004, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-some-help-with-the-hobbit-please/230453/20 "2004-02-23T14:21:56Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > You fanatic loonies That may very well be the nicest thing anyone on the SDMB has said to me. 🙂 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-some-help-with-the-hobbit-please/230453.md?page=2)