# LOTR fans - What's the book's weakest point? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 29, 2008, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031 "2008-12-29T03:57:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/1 "2008-12-29T03:57:03Z")
For me it’s Gandalf’s resurrection. The eagles never seemed like a deus ex machina to me. The poetry, even Tom Bombadil - all of fits together and I love it. But Gandalf’s comeback always seemed like a poorly plotted point to me. It’s a minor quibble in a long major masterpiece of plotting. How do other fantards feel? Is there a weak spot for you? If so, what? ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/2 "2008-12-29T04:28:20Z")
The Paths of the Dead comes really out of the blue. That’d be my weak plot point, if I had to pick one. It always feels very, “oh, and I forgot to mention that Aragorn has at his disposal an unstoppable undead army, but he only gets to use them for a little while.” ---
**Author:** ![5\_time\_champ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/278dde/32.png) [@5\_time\_champ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5_time_champ)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/3 "2008-12-29T04:46:57Z")
Gandalf’s resurrection- but the part we he meets Aragorn & Co at the edge of Fangorn’s woods. The fact that Gandalf doesn’t recognize Aragorn is too much- Tolkein was trying to be just a little too clever wanting us to think the old man in grey was Saruman. I can’t say I am a big fan of the longer poems, though I did like the shorter rhymes. Outside of that I don’t see hardly any weak spots. Now if you are talking about that work of Mordor movie made by he-whom-we-do-not-name- we could be here until winter turned into spring. I thought the Army of the Dead works great in the book- although it was the absolute worst part of the movie. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/4 "2008-12-29T05:11:25Z")
I think the weakest part of the books is the jarring change in tone from the early chapters in the Shire and up until Rivendell, as contrasted with what comes after. I don’t object to the presence of Tom Bombadil, so much as the _tone_ of their encounter with him. If we add The Hobbit, that’s even more jarring, but I can kind of wave that off as Bilbo’s authorial voice on that one. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/5 "2008-12-29T05:25:49Z")
The lack of sex. ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/6 "2008-12-29T05:48:05Z")
Having recently reread the books for the first time in literally 20 years, the worst flaw I noticed was the overabundance of details, particularly it seemed to me during the Frodo and Sam sections later on. Tolkien often wrote more like a scholar than a storyteller, and the league-by-league descriptions of every leg of the characters’ journey may seem defensible if you regard the book, as Prof T seems to have done, as an exercise in historical reconstruction. As an epic adventure story, the book drags at these moments. A more, dare I say, modern writer would’ve elided these passages and collapsed the more quotidian sections of the journey, but Tolkien rarely does this. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/7 "2008-12-29T06:31:33Z")
Middle-Earth comes across as being about the size of New Jersey. ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/8 "2008-12-29T09:29:48Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Middle-Earth comes across as being about the size of New Jersey. Resisting the urge to start a Thread asking Dopers to set the story in New Jersey! Shire: Cape May? Mordor: Camden? Jersey City? Rivendell: . . . ah, that’s where is falls apart- Jersey definitely has no Rivendell. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/9 "2008-12-29T09:43:46Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The lack of sex. That’s the general curse of the nerds who read it in HS. Four books to bring them all and with their pimples bind them. I always thought the character of Tom Bombadil should have played a greater role in the books. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/10 "2008-12-29T09:47:38Z")
> [@Nonsuch](#): > > Having recently reread the books for the first time in literally 20 years, the worst flaw I noticed was the overabundance of details, particularly it seemed to me during the Frodo and Sam sections later on. Tolkien often wrote more like a scholar than a storyteller, This is certainly true but it has it’s advantages. The movie depictions were exactly as I had imagined it because of the detail in the book. I found the opposite to be true of HP and could never piece together Hogwarts in my mind. The fact that it changes between movies doesn’t help nor does the complete rewrite of some of the storyline. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/11 "2008-12-29T09:49:03Z")
Wait… they made a book about it? ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/12 "2008-12-29T10:59:06Z")
The whole plot sort of over relies on last minute saves and deus-ex machina. Both major battles are resolved by the last minute arrival of unlooked for reinforcements, Aragon’s suicide mission into Mordor is similarly saved at the last minute by the destruction of the ring, Gandalf is saved by an almost literal Deus ex machina, the hobbits are saved from the barrow by the last minute arrival of Tom Bombadil, etc. Also, is it just my imagination, or does no one mention that destroying the ring will also destroy Sauron? I haven’t read the books in several years, but from what I remember the point of destroying the ring was to keep Sauron from getting it after he finished his almost inevitable conquest of Middle Earth. The fact that it also miraculously solves all the heros other problems seemed a pretty lucky side effect. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/13 "2008-12-29T11:08:39Z")
Tom Bombadil has been my beef from the first time I read the book (I was 7. You can tell what kind of kid I was). He comes from nowhere, does nothing to further the plot, doesn’t help the Fellows in any shape, way or form, spews god awful poetry, and the whole episode takes for fucking ever. What the fuck is that about ? Tolkien only knows. But you ask me, if Peter Jackson has done one good thing in the movies, it’s getting rid of that bumbling cretin. But plotwise, \*\*Eonwe \*\*brings up a good point with the Army of the Dead, it does feel very deus ex machinish. @\*\*Nonsuch \*\*: heh, I remember the first time I tried to read it in English. Who knew there were so many different words for “fern” ? And don’t get me started on the bloody Lorièn. Look, J.R.R., I \*get \*it. It’s a tree, only it’s got yellow leaves. It’s a beautiful golden tree, lovely plumage. I don’t need 15 pages of fucking botany intermingled with poetry to get the general message. Get with the orc slayage already. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/14 "2008-12-29T12:08:31Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Also, is it just my imagination, or does no one mention that destroying the ring will also destroy Sauron? I haven’t read the books in several years, but from what I remember the point of destroying the ring was to keep Sauron from getting it after he finished his almost inevitable conquest of Middle Earth. The fact that it also miraculously solves all the heros other problems seemed a pretty lucky side effect. It’s your imagination. Gandalf was quite clear on the point - Sauron put an inordinate amount of his own power into the Ring, believing that no-one would ever destroy such a precioussss item even if they could (1) work out how to do it, (2) get to the only place in the world where it could be done, and (3) buckeyes. Because of this, he would be reduced to a powerless spirit if ever the Ring was destroyed, and everything that had ever been done or maintained through the power of the Ring would be undone - hence the fall of Barad-dur, the rout of all Sauron’s armies, and the extinction of the eight remaining Nazgul. See “The Last Debate”, Chapter IX of Book 5 (first section of _The Return of the King_). ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Just\_Ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Ed)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/15 "2008-12-29T12:08:34Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > Resisting the urge to start a Thread asking Dopers to set the story in New Jersey! > > Shire: Cape May? > Mordor: Camden? Jersey City? > Rivendell: . . . ah, that’s where is falls apart- Jersey definitely has no Rivendell. Hey! Uh . . . Well . . . I guess the [Goldman Tower](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:30hudson.jpg) might be an apt substitute for [Mount Doom](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mordor.png) . . . On topic, I’ll agree with a couple of points previously mentioned - the Bombadil excursion in its entirety, and the abrupt change in tone. I’m not a Tolkien scholar, but my own thought is that _Lord of the Rings_ began in much the same tone as _The Hobbit_, but Tolkien then decided on a much darker tone when he rewrote the “Riddles in the Dark” chapter. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/16 "2008-12-29T12:15:57Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > Rivendell: . . . ah, that’s where is falls apart- Jersey definitely has no Rivendell. Princeton, maybe? ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/17 "2008-12-29T13:48:39Z")
That bit at the end after Frodo and Sam are rescued where Aragorn goes out and finds the magic tree that he replants and proves that Aragorn is THE TRUE KING. Yes, I’m certain that it’s laden with symbolism and fraught with significance…but it’s also coma-inducing. Also, the Deus Ex Eagles. Yeah, from reading posts _here_ and Tolkien’s letters, I see what he was getting at, but he fails completely (to me) in giving the reader any hint that there’s a reason other than the characters are too dumb to ask the Eagles to just carry Frodo & Co. wherever they need to go (even if it’s only in short hops and skips–wouldn’t an Eagle-ride have solve the whole “Moria” question nicely? (Yeah, Saruman was making it snow…so? Fly south) ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/18 "2008-12-29T14:33:01Z")
As for the whole _Deus Ex Machina_ thing, that’s kinda the normal SOP with fantasy. Hell, virtually every Harry Potter resolution is a DEM. Speaking of Tom Bombadil, a former mentor of mine (who went insane and died an early death) spoke about how the real world is filled with Tom Bombadils. People who have immense power in their tiny little world, but are powerless beyond that zone. Think of any despotic power mad middle manager. They can make your life hell while you’re under their control, but they have absolutely nothing on you once you move on. In fact, if you meet them years later in the grocery store, you’ll see them as the sad lonely figures they really are. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/19 "2008-12-29T15:00:13Z")
Obviously I cannot answer the Op as I see no weak points in the most perfect book ever written. So I will try to answer some of the other points instead. > [@Nonsuch](#): > > Having recently reread the books for the first time in literally 20 years, the worst flaw I noticed was the overabundance of details, particularly it seemed to me during the Frodo and Sam sections later on. Tolkien often wrote more like a scholar than a storyteller, and the league-by-league descriptions of every leg of the characters’ journey may seem defensible if you regard the book, as Prof T seems to have done, as an exercise in historical reconstruction. As an epic adventure story, the book drags at these moments. A more, dare I say, modern writer would’ve elided these passages and collapsed the more quotidian sections of the journey, but Tolkien rarely does this. Those details are what bring Middle Earth to life and resulted in such a huge following to this day that shows no signs of diminishing. The fact he presented the tale in terms of an entertaining historical piece is the very thing that adds a strong sense of reality to this most famous of fantasies. > [@bienville](#): > > Resisting the urge to start a Thread asking Dopers to set the story in New Jersey! > > Shire: Cape May? > Mordor: Camden? Jersey City? > Rivendell: . . . ah, that’s where is falls apart- Jersey definitely has no Rivendell. I’ve had my location for year indicating that Central Jersey (specifically Monmouth County) is near Bree after all. 😃 > [@Magiver](#): > > That’s the general curse of the nerds who read it in HS. Four books to bring them all and with their pimples bind them. > > I always thought the character of Tom Bombadil should have played a greater role in the books. Cute on the first and on the second, Tom could not. As he himself said, he was restricted to his little patch of Middle Earth and secondly it just was not his personality to adventure out. I would hazard a guess that Tom’s powers were strongly concentrated in the area of the Old Forest much as [Melian](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melian#Biography)could long hold off Morgoth himself within the fences of Doriath but not conforont him directly. > [@Simplicio](#): > > The whole plot sort of over relies on last minute saves and deus-ex machina. Both major battles are resolved by the last minute arrival of unlooked for reinforcements, Aragon’s suicide mission into Mordor is similarly saved at the last minute by the destruction of the ring, Gandalf is saved by an almost literal Deus ex machina, the hobbits are saved from the barrow by the last minute arrival of Tom Bombadil, etc. > > Also, is it just my imagination, or does no one mention that destroying the ring will also destroy Sauron? I haven’t read the books in several years, but from what I remember the point of destroying the ring was to keep Sauron from getting it after he finished his almost inevitable conquest of Middle Earth. The fact that it also miraculously solves all the heros other problems seemed a pretty lucky side effect. It is true that Deus ex machina happens often but as \*\*Chimera \*\*pointed out, that is the nature of the beast called fantasy. Each of them also make sense within the structure of the world Professor Tolkien created. As to Sauron, \*\*Malacandra \*\*answered that magnificently. > [@Fenris](#): > > That bit at the end after Frodo and Sam are rescued where Aragorn goes out and finds the magic tree that he replants and proves that Aragorn is THE TRUE KING. > > Yes, I’m certain that it’s laden with symbolism and fraught with significance…but it’s also coma-inducing. > > Also, the Deus Ex Eagles. Yeah, from reading posts _here_ and Tolkien’s letters, I see what he was getting at, but he fails completely (to me) in giving the reader any hint that there’s a reason other than the characters are too dumb to ask the Eagles to just carry Frodo & Co. wherever they need to go (even if it’s only in short hops and skips–wouldn’t an Eagle-ride have solve the whole “Moria” question nicely? (Yeah, Saruman was making it snow…so? Fly south) If you found it coma inducing that is fine, I can’t argue that point as it is dependent on each reader. The Eagles have been done to death and no need to repeat it. I guess it is true that Tolkien did not make it clear enough why they did not help more. It was unlikely that Saruman had anything to do with the snow. That was the movie’s interpretation. Caradhras had its own malevolent spirit with its own purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/20 "2008-12-29T15:23:21Z")
I guess I’ll be the only to admit that I hate all of the poems and songs. GOD, they’re boring. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031.md?page=2)