# LOTR fans - What's the book's weakest point? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 29, 2008, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031 "2008-12-29T03:57:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/201 "2009-01-03T18:52:41Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Just a nitpick. Depending on the version accepted; Galadriel either lived out the first age in Beleriand or moved into Eriador before the fall of Nargothrond. She did not move onto Lothlórien until after spending time in Eregion (Hollin) somewhere around 1300 to 1697(SA). > > For completion sake; She was not the Queen of Lothlórien until after Amroth left after 1981 when the Balrog awoke nearby in Moria. > > Jim A _people_, Jim. She had lived amongst the Sindar of Doriath since not too long after returning to Middle-Earth; not among the Noldor. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/202 "2009-01-03T19:07:46Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > At least Strider/Aragorn and Gandalf/Mithrandir are mentioned multiple times in context with both names. There’s even a passage where Gandalf explicitly recites all the names “in the south I am Gandalf, in the west I am Mithrandir, to the east I go not,” or some such. There’s also a _letter from Gandalf_ that says “his name is Aragorn son of Arathorn” and a scene in Rivendell (“Strider! Well I never”) that matches Aragorn up to his other names. > > I don’t have my books in front of me, but as I recall it, Arwen isn’t even mentioned by name when we first see her — Frodo just observes a really beautiful elf-maiden sitting beside Elrond. Pfft, could be anybody. And had Arwen been in Minas Tirith it would have been a much more concrete and tangible demonstration of her choice to stand with Aragorn. I feel that it makes her look wishy-washy to stay behind with the Elves in Rivendell just to see if the Men win the battle. (She loves Aragorn, but not _that_ much, it seems. Samwise loves Frodo so much that he’ll follow him into a secret Council but Arwen can barely bestir herself from her bonbons at bedside to see Aragorn off to battle.) We barely get to see who she is — Elbereth is mentioned more times than Arwen — and she’s gonna be the Queen of Freakin’ Gondor. 🙂 > > “A woman would only be in the way” is exactly what they told Éowyn. That didn’t seem to stop them from inviting along Sam, Merry and Pippin, who had no battle training whatsoever! > > Aragorn: All right, who’s the next applicant? > Pippin: Me, sir. > Aragorn: (reading the resume) Can’t ride, can’t fight, can’t boat. Can sing a little. > Pippin: Yep. > Aragorn: Got any armor or swords? > Pippin: Armor, no. But I robbed a grave and stole this knife. > Aragorn: Male? > Pippin: Yep. > Aragorn: You’re in. Who’s next? > Éowyn: Me, my lord. > Aragorn: (he reads her resume) Trained warrior, it says. Shield-maiden of Rohan. And you can ride. > Éowyn: Yes. > Aragorn: Says here you have your own gear, and a horse. Interesting. > Éowyn: Then I’m in? > Aragorn: You’d just be in the way. > > Makes no sense. 😉 You’re missing one or two interview questions: Aragorn: And you’ve no duty to your own kingdom at the moment? You know, what with being next but one after the heir? Éowyn: Yeah, but… Aragorn: But? Éowyn: But I don’t wanna do it! Aragorn: Sorry, but I can’t take you. You’ve no business along with me anyway. Éowyn: But I love you! Aragorn: **you’ve only known me five minutes, and I’m engaged already. This is not going to end well** Even more sorry, but no. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/203 "2009-01-03T19:22:41Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > You’re missing one or two interview questions: > > Aragorn: And you’ve no duty to your own kingdom at the moment? You know, what with being next but one after the heir? > Éowyn: Yeah, but… > Aragorn: But? > Éowyn: But I don’t wanna do it! > Aragorn: Sorry, but I can’t take you. You’ve no business along with me anyway. > Éowyn: But I love you! > Aragorn: **you’ve only known me five minutes, and I’m engaged already. This is not going to end well** Even more sorry, but no. 😃 > [@Malacandra](#): > > A _people_, Jim. She had lived amongst the Sindar of Doriath since not too long after returning to Middle-Earth; not among the Noldor. OK, I read your statement as she lived among the people she ruled over since long before Morgoth was overthrown. I did not parse it correctly. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2009, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/204 "2009-01-03T22:57:50Z")
Imperfect author as he was, please join me in raising a glass in honor of the Professor, born this day in South Africa in 1892. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2009, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/205 "2009-01-03T23:34:20Z")
Cheers, indeed. To you, dear Prof. JRRT! Even with the flaws noted in this thread, we fans lovingly salute your creation. ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2009, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/206 "2009-01-03T23:47:57Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > “A woman would only be in the way” is exactly what they told Éowyn. That didn’t seem to stop them from inviting along Sam, Merry and Pippin, who had no battle training whatsoever! > > Aragorn: All right, who’s the next applicant? > Pippin: Me, sir. > Aragorn: (reading the resume) Can’t ride, can’t fight, can’t boat. Can sing a little. > Pippin: Yep. > Aragorn: Got any armor or swords? > Pippin: Armor, no. But I robbed a grave and stole this knife. > Aragorn: Male? > Pippin: Yep. > Aragorn: You’re in. Who’s next? > Éowyn: Me, my lord. > Aragorn: (he reads her resume) Trained warrior, it says. Shield-maiden of Rohan. And you can ride. > Éowyn: Yes. > Aragorn: Says here you have your own gear, and a horse. Interesting. > Éowyn: Then I’m in? > Aragorn: You’d just be in the way. > > Makes no sense. 😉 But it’s worth noting that Théoden refused to allow Merry to ride with the Rohirrim for precisely this reason: he would just be in the way. After the fall of Isengard, Gandalf took Pippin with him when he rode to Minas Tirith for the sole purpose of getting Pippin _out_ of the way. And for that matter, at the formation of the Fellowship, Elrond spoke strongly against Merry and Pippin being included in the first place. And as **Malacandra** pointed out, Éowyn had a duty to her people that constrained her from riding with Aragorn, even if he had been willing to take her. Sam, Merry, and Pippin had no such tethers, so they were able to insinuate themselves into the Fellowship through sheer force of whining. 😃 > [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Imperfect author as he was, please join me in raising a glass in honor of the Professor, born this day in South Africa in 1892. Hear, hear! Perfect schmerfect; no writer (or work) is without flaws, notwithstanding the fact that no force in the universe can save a timeless masterpiece from the gentle but captious scrutinies of its most devoted fans. I’m only too happy to join a toast to the brilliance of Professor Tolkien’s literary achievement. ---
**Author:** ![5\_time\_champ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/278dde/32.png) [@5\_time\_champ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5_time_champ)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2009, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/207 "2009-01-03T23:59:02Z")
Hmm- this thread is almost a week old with more than 200 posts, and no one brings up the “Did the Balrog of Moria have wings?” controversy. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/208 "2009-01-04T05:15:57Z")
> [@5\_time\_champ](#): > > Hmm- this thread is almost a week old with more than 200 posts, and no one brings up the “Did the Balrog of Moria have wings?” controversy. Is that really “the book’s weakest point” for you? ---
**Author:** ![MichaelQReilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@MichaelQReilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelQReilly)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/209 "2009-01-04T05:16:53Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > About women… > > How many women are there in Beowulf? How important are they in Gawain and the Green Knight? In the Icelandic sagas? Because those were Professor Tolkien’s filed of reference, and what he was trying to recreate. Tolkien’s writing was not so much a product of his time as a product of the 9th Century A.D. Strangely enough, I was just reading about the Icelandic Sagas that chronicle the Viking settlement of North America. A woman, some relation of Leif Erikson I think, led the final voyage to Newfoundland. When they were attacked by the natives, she advanced toward them, exposed her left breast, and slapped it with the broad side of her sword. This display scared the hell out of the attackers and they fled from her. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/210 "2009-01-04T06:02:10Z")
That would be Freydis, already quite name-checked elsewhere in this thread. And belated cheers to the Master, JRRT! ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/211 "2009-01-04T15:47:00Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > And belated cheers to the Master, JRRT! Indeed. I wish he was still around and vying with Bilbo for age. It is sobering to remember that Christopher Tolkien is already 84. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelQReilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@MichaelQReilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelQReilly)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/212 "2009-01-04T16:42:59Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > That would be Freydis, already quite name-checked elsewhere in this thread. > > And belated cheers to the Master, JRRT! So it was, not sure how I missed that. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/213 "2009-01-04T16:48:46Z")
What about that Viking woman who smacked her boob with a sword? She rocked! ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/214 "2009-01-04T17:24:36Z")
I heard there was some sort of Viking chick who scared off the enemy with her breast-baring-beating act! Should we talk about her?? ---
**Author:** ![MichaelQReilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@MichaelQReilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelQReilly)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/215 "2009-01-04T22:31:04Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > I heard there was some sort of Viking chick who scared off the enemy with her breast-baring-beating act! Should we talk about her?? I don’t think anyone has mentioned her, why not go ahead and tell the story. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/216 "2009-01-04T23:21:11Z")
How come I don’t see anything like that watching Minnesota games? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/217 "2009-01-04T23:44:47Z")
Giving more thought to Tom Bombadi, I understand the character’s limitations as they were written but his power over the ring suggests a greater function within the story line. I expected him to carry as much weight as the other main characters and his dominion should have been written to allow a greater role. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/218 "2009-01-05T00:15:57Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > What about that Viking woman who smacked her boob with a sword? She rocked! Once, in 1060, for 20 minutes. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/219 "2009-01-05T01:13:40Z")
I’d like to have seen _her_ Marianas Trench, if ya know what I mean… ---
**Author:** ![Marlitharn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/779978/32.png) [@Marlitharn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marlitharn)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/220 "2009-01-05T03:32:18Z")
She was pregnant, too. We salute YOU, pissed-off hormonal breast-beating Viking woman! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031.md?page=12)