# LOTR fans - What's the book's weakest point? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 29, 2008, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031 "2008-12-29T03:57:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/221 "2009-01-05T17:56:05Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Also, Tom was sex. Is this your own theory, or a common tongue-in-cheek contention? (I’m not much involved in JRRT fandom.) I can see where Old (wo)Man Willow is equipped with a vagina dentata, and Tom the Bomb rescues the innocent boy-men from her deadly feminine machinations. I think I also understand Tom’s distribution of short but powerful daggers to the hobbits. But, I’m at a loss regarding the symbolism of the Barrow Wight. Can I get some help? Anyway, sign me up for your newsletter. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/222 "2009-01-05T18:30:24Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > But, I’m at a loss regarding the symbolism of the Barrow Wight. Can I get some help? > > Anyway, sign me up for your newsletter. The Mother-in-Law. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/223 "2009-01-05T18:32:17Z")
Too much of a sausage-fest not even enlivened with a bit of hot, situational gay sex. Tom Bombadil. The mincing, prancing we’re-so-much-better-than-everybody-else Elves. Tom Bombadil (he’s bad enough to mention twice). The boring, beshitted, endless poems and songs. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/224 "2009-01-05T18:43:01Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Too much of a sausage-fest not even enlivened with a bit of hot, situational gay sex. So… I’m guessing you enjoyed PJ’s addition of the hobbits and the gay bed scene in RotK, then? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![rpinrd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b3f665/32.png) [@rpinrd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rpinrd)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/225 "2009-01-05T21:12:03Z")
Off topic in that it has to do with the movie, but since the great LoTR thinkers are assembled in one place. . . When the Fellowship enters the Mines of Moria, why was it a surprise to Gimli that all the Dwarves had been killed? From the looks of it, everyone there had been dead for years. You would think that word of the downfall of Moria might have leaked out to the rest of Middle Earth. Is this just a set dressing issue? Can’t remember how it is handled in the book. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/226 "2009-01-05T21:24:36Z")
> [@rpinrd](#): > > Off topic in that it has to do with the movie, but since the great LoTR thinkers are assembled in one place. . . > > When the Fellowship enters the Mines of Moria, why was it a surprise to Gimli that all the Dwarves had been killed? From the looks of it, everyone there had been dead for years. You would think that word of the downfall of Moria might have leaked out to the rest of Middle Earth. Is this just a set dressing issue? Can’t remember how it is handled in the book. He suspected they were dead, but had hope. Indeed, news had been cut off, but his kin could have been deep down and just incommunicado. Of course, everyone knew about the first fall of Moria, but that was a long time before. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/227 "2009-01-05T21:24:57Z")
> [@rpinrd](#): > > Off topic in that it has to do with the movie, but since the great LoTR thinkers are assembled in one place. . . > > When the Fellowship enters the Mines of Moria, why was it a surprise to Gimli that all the Dwarves had been killed? From the looks of it, everyone there had been dead for years. You would think that word of the downfall of Moria might have leaked out to the rest of Middle Earth. Is this just a set dressing issue? Can’t remember how it is handled in the book. Gimli was still holding out hope that Balin was still holding out somewhere near the eastern side of Moria. I’m sure he did not think it too likely but I think you could understand why he held out hope. ---
**Author:** ![rpinrd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b3f665/32.png) [@rpinrd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rpinrd)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/228 "2009-01-05T21:29:05Z")
As I suspected, definitely a movie issue. In the movie, the party is eagerly anticipating the hospitality of Moria. Gimli says something about roaring fires, ale, etc. etc. Then Gandalf gets his staff lit up and Boromir says, “This is no mine, it is a tomb.” ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/229 "2009-01-05T21:32:50Z")
> [@rpinrd](#): > > As I suspected, definitely a movie issue. In the movie, the party is eagerly anticipating the hospitality of Moria. Gimli says something about roaring fires, ale, etc. etc. Then Gandalf gets his staff lit up and Boromir says, “This is no mine, it is a tomb.” That is not really correct. Gimli may have had hope for such but Aragorn and Gandalf both feared the worst. It had been years since Balin’s party was heard from and they only tried Moria after failing at a tough mountain pass that already had a name of ill-will. Strike that, I misread what you posted. I don’t know the movie well enough and I will take your word for it. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/230 "2009-01-05T21:41:46Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > Resisting the urge to start a Thread asking Dopers to set the story in New Jersey! > > Shire: Cape May? > Mordor: Camden? Jersey City? > Rivendell: . . . ah, that’s where is falls apart- Jersey definitely has no Rivendell. You mean Rivendell, the place that considers itself the guardian of culture and light surrounded by people who have fallen back into barbarity, which occasionally deigns to educate the children of royal families, but mostly spends its time singing drinking songs and talking about how much better things used to be when everybody knew their place? Yeah, I think Princeton fits the bill. (Now I’m rewriting in my head the escape scene at the Fords to be the escape scene at Princeton Junction where Elrond exerts his power to change the Dinky schedule so that Frodo just barely makes it on in time to escape the Black Riders) ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/231 "2009-01-05T22:14:55Z")
> [@rpinrd](#): > > Off topic in that it has to do with the movie, but since the great LoTR thinkers are assembled in one place. . . > > When the Fellowship enters the Mines of Moria, why was it a surprise to Gimli that all the Dwarves had been killed? From the looks of it, everyone there had been dead for years. You would think that word of the downfall of Moria might have leaked out to the rest of Middle Earth. Is this just a set dressing issue? Can’t remember how it is handled in the book. We are talking about a race of folks who lived for several centuries (dwarves) or forever (elves). It may not be unusual for a new colony (or mining expedition) to be incommunicado for a few decades while they get their act together, especially if the distance from the originating population is far. “They’re too busy building infrastructure, fightin’ gobs, and hunting up some grub to want to sit down and scratch out a ‘howdy-do’ for no real reason.” (What’s the distance from Moria to the Iron Hills, or the Lonely Mountain?) Heck, folks in Gondor and Rohan seem to not have heard of the Shire (and Hobbits), because nothin seemed to have happened there in a while (after the fall of Arnor). ---
**Author:** ![rpinrd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b3f665/32.png) [@rpinrd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rpinrd)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/232 "2009-01-05T22:42:17Z")
Hmmm… I don’t know about that. Form the depths of their excavations, I don’t think Moria was a new colony. Also, you’d think some of the local traders might’ve gotten a little suspicious when the supply of mithril suddenly disappeared. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/233 "2009-01-05T22:56:07Z")
> [@rpinrd](#): > > Hmmm… I don’t know about that. Form the depths of their excavations, I don’t think Moria was a new colony. Also, you’d think some of the local traders might’ve gotten a little suspicious when the supply of mithril suddenly disappeared. No. Moria was not new. It was originally settled way back in the First Age. [Moria, Middle-earth - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moria_(Middle-earth)) However, after the Balrog (“Durin’s Bane”) was unearthed in the 1980th year of the Third Age (TA), those dwarves who were not slain fled. In 2790 TA (1800 years after the Balrog was released), the dwarves tried to recolonize the place (led by Thror). They fought a huge costly battle with the orcs in the place, and gave up the attempt. The Dwarf Balin tried again (year not given in the wiki link). I assumed it was only a handfull of decades before the War of the Ring (3019-3020 TA). ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/234 "2009-01-05T23:40:51Z")
“Led” insofar as Thror went with few companions, and was murdered, and the last great mustering of the Dwarves was undertaken to avenge him. It was a crushing but costly victory for the slow-breeding Dwarves, already slipping into decline. Balin went to Moria in 2989 TA (two years before Eomer was born, and ten before Bilbo’s birthday party). The colony fell five years later. ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/235 "2009-01-06T00:27:22Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > You mean Rivendell, the place that considers itself the guardian of culture and light surrounded by people who have fallen back into barbarity, which occasionally deigns to educate the children of royal families, but mostly spends its time singing drinking songs and talking about how much better things used to be when everybody knew their place? > > Yeah, I think Princeton fits the bill. O.K. The case for Princeton as Rivendell has been satisfactorily articulated. Well done, **Quercus**. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031.md?page=11)