# LOTR fans - What's the book's weakest point? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 29, 2008, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031 "2008-12-29T03:57:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/61 "2008-12-30T00:18:00Z")
Ah—yeah, by the late '50s Ballantine Books had pretty much fixed their book-binding glue issues, Ace didn’t figure it out until the mid-to-late '60s and Berkely didn’t figure it out…well…ever, really. But today, Baen has never heard of ink fixative–my hands always look like I’ve been mining coal when I read a Baen book. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/62 "2008-12-30T00:20:21Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Heh. Those ACE covers were the first copies of the books I ever saw, when my big sister was reading them. Good times. > > Another gripe: Theoden is scraping the bottom of the barrel for troops at the Battle of Helm’s Deep. Then he’s got a gigantic army just in time to ride to the rescue of Minas Tirith. I’d be asking, “Where the hell were you guys a few days ago?” Scattered to hell and gone all over the Kingdom. That’s why there’s this chapter titled “The Muster of Rohan”. Dude wasn’t planning on fighting Saruman; he’d been lulled into inactivity by Grima, and only when he got the wake-up call from Gandalf did he get off his duff and take what men he had on hand to hurry off and reinforce Erkenbrand of Westfold at the borders. (He was too late to help there, even so, hence the rapid switchback to Helm’s Deep.) That was rapid-response as in a matter of hours. Once Saruman was dealt with he got the summons from Gondor and had a few days to answer it; the messenger from Minas Tirith was unhappy at how many days it would take, but it couldn’t be helped; Rohan didn’t keep six thousand lances on standby 24/7. Don’t do badly for a dude who everyone keeps forgetting to ask, do I? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Kilvert\_s\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@Kilvert\_s\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kilvert_s_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/63 "2008-12-30T00:23:28Z")
Much as I’ve always loved the book, I remain squeamish about the whole “bloodlines” thing. Tolkien seemed very comfortable with the apparently self-evident superiority of royals, lords of the manor, etc… ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/64 "2008-12-30T00:23:32Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > I actually meant that the ACE covers fell off pretty easily… > > :o Ha! That’s exactly how I read it, and then seeing everyone’s responses, I assumed it was about the artwork! ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/65 "2008-12-30T00:36:26Z")
> [@Nonsuch](#): > > I was wondering how long it would take someone to equate a displeasure with Tolkien’s prolixity with some kind of overall decline in attention span. I will have none of it. There are details that serve a narrative purpose, and there are details for the sake of details – details usually included under the misbelief that they constitute “realism.” The “just the facts” attitude decried by the previous poster is the very attitude that seemed to drive many of Professor T’s narrative choices. Every writing workshop rookie learns that you don’t treat every detail with equal importance. As I said, it’s pretty obvious that the professor approached the story more as imagined history than as a simple adventure story. If you find it increases the believability of Middle Earth, power to you. I personally did not need that much convincing, and just because a thing is arduous to experience doesn’t mean it should be arduous to read about. > > Off of soapbox. (For now). Every writing rookie may learn that, but not every writing rookie is the proud producer of one of the best selling books in all of history, now are they? 😉 Face it: it isn’t just Tolkein you are going to dislike if this is your attitude (as I pointed out). It’s Dickens. It’s Melville. It’s … Get the point? And I’m not saying that that makes it wrong. I’m just saying that it’s sad that modern Americans have that attitude in spades, and not just about what they read. Their games, their TV shows, their classes at school, all have to have this ability to hold their attention with on demand action. Patience is out the window. Atmosphere is irrelevant. I find it sad. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/66 "2008-12-30T00:38:52Z")
> [@Kilvert\_s\_Pagan](#): > > Much as I’ve always loved the book, I remain squeamish about the whole “bloodlines” thing. Tolkien seemed very comfortable with the apparently self-evident superiority of royals, lords of the manor, etc… Mostly that didn’t bother me, but there’s one scene with Sam and Frodo (and Sam is by far my favorite character) where Sam is so servile and cringing that it’s wince-inducing. He sounds like a Stepin Fetchit characture. “Lawsy massa, don’t beat ol’ massa Frodo–ise da one you should be awhippin’” (obviously, this is an overstatement but it’s a grotesque moment for an otherwise fantastic character) ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/67 "2008-12-30T00:41:46Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > You misspelled “Sauron”. 😃 (You may have been misled by someone-or-other). Yes, I’m going to blame that on the appearance of Sauron himself upthread. I’m sure he’s managed to subtly deflect all attention from himself somehow. :smack: Anyway, the point is that they suspected it wasn’t Caradhras, and if Sauron could do it, so could Saruman, in a pinch. 😉 **Qadgop,** I am ASSUMING you know of the Ace covers coming off purely through hearsay, RIGHT? You certainly never PURCHASED those copyright ignoring volumes… :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/68 "2008-12-30T01:55:05Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > **Qadgop,** I am ASSUMING you know of the Ace covers coming off purely through hearsay, RIGHT? You certainly never PURCHASED those copyright ignoring volumes… :dubious: I still have my original Ballantine paperback edition copies, the first ones I ever bought. But in HS and college, I saw a lot of old ACE copies, very few with intact covers. And I also owned a _lot_ of ACE novels, mainly by Andre Norton (my tastes improved with time, fortunately). ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/69 "2008-12-30T02:03:08Z")
> [@](#): > > LOTR fans - What’s the book’s weakest point? The poetry. And Tom Bombadil. ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/70 "2008-12-30T02:18:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Patience is out the window. Atmosphere is irrelevant. I find it sad. Much of the writing in Lord of the Rings is atmospheric. Much of it is not. Regardless, the fact that the book remains so popular despite its length and complexity would seem to disprove, or at least not to prove, your point. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/71 "2008-12-30T03:06:41Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > For those who don’t know what **Qadgop** and I are talking about, check out [this page](http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/oop-lotr.html). Gah, those 3rd Ballentine covers! :eek: _hugs 2nd Ballantine boxed set for comfort_ ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/72 "2008-12-30T04:00:47Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > So the Palandiri were lost for ages. Thousands of years passed, with people searching for some of the most powerful items ever created by one of the most powerful elves who ever lived. In the stories, second in power only to the Rings. This is so wrong on so many points. The Palantiri where not lost for ages. I think you are confusing them with the Silmarils themselves. > [@Malacandra](#): > > Don’t do badly for a dude who everyone keeps forgetting to ask, do I? 😛 You are doing great. I was ready to answer/respond to several statements and there was \*\*Malacandra \*\*answering them expertly already. ---
**Author:** ![Marlitharn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/779978/32.png) [@Marlitharn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marlitharn)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/73 "2008-12-30T05:06:41Z")
> [@5\_time\_champ](#): > > Gandalf’s resurrection- but the part we he meets Aragorn & Co at the edge of Fangorn’s woods. The fact that Gandalf doesn’t recognize Aragorn is too much- Tolkein was trying to be just a little too clever wanting us to think the old man in grey was Saruman. I thought the old man in gray _was_ Saruman? I don’t have my book with me, but IIRC after everyone has their merry little reunion in the forest, Gimli asks Gandalf (paraphrasing), “Was that you we saw last night?” and Gandalf replies, “It wasn’t me, so I can only assume you saw Saruman.” I think the weakest part for me was Frodo’s song and dance routine at The Prancing Pony. Pippin won’t stop running his mouth so the only thing Frodo can think to do is jump up on a table and put on a show? What about just yelling, “Hey, Pip, c’mere for a second” and then smacking him over the head while hissing “We’re supposed to be _incognito_, ya moron!” ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/74 "2008-12-30T05:16:52Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Also, the Deus Ex Eagles. Yeah, from reading posts _here_ and Tolkien’s letters, I see what he was getting at, but he fails completely (to me) in giving the reader any hint that there’s a reason other than the characters are too dumb to ask the Eagles to just carry Frodo & Co. wherever they need to go (even if it’s only in short hops and skips–wouldn’t an Eagle-ride have solve the whole “Moria” question nicely? (Yeah, Saruman was making it snow…so? Fly south) I’m curious - what is/was the “official” reason ? Besides “'cause there’d be no plot then” obviously. I always figured the Eagles would’ve been much too high profile : finding a trio of hobbitses hoofing through Mordor when you don’t even imagine they might be there is a tough task for The Eye. Spotting a bunch of giant birds making a beeline for Mount Dooooom ? That’s a mite easier, and the Nazguls have giant flying… things of their own (can’t remember their name, and I’ve misplaced my old copy of MERP). They could have either taken out the Eagles mid-flight, or zoomed over to the volcano and waited for Bagginssss - and this time, no lvl. 25 King of Numenor to save his sorry arse. Heck, Sauron himself had oodles of power within the borders of Mordor, he could probably have caused an eruption, or a tornado over the mountain, something like that, had he known how close the Ring was. [QUOTE=mudkicker] Re the OP, the whole premise of Frodo and Sam being the ones to take the ring to Mordor. Yes, I know, Frodo=Ring-bearer, meant to have the ring etc etc, but seriously, this is the most powerful/dangerous/important object in Middle Earth, and they let two inexperienced hobbits try and get it to Mordor? I _know_ that’s the point of the book, but it always make me go meh. [/QUOTE] Precisely _because_ they’re inexperienced, weed-tokin’ and above all, simple minded morons. They’re the only folk in the entire world who don’t go “muahahaha, now I have THE RING !”, because they have no idea what to do with it. To them, it’s just a Ring of Invisibility. Which comes handy at birthday parties or for avoiding nasty relatives, but other than that ? Meh, t’ain’t worth a good mug o’ beer by the fire, Mister Frodo. Any other would be heroes would have been consumed by the power, just like Boromir was. What is not readily apparent however, is why Gandalf, Aragorn & co. do not figure the whole thing has gone pear shaped once Sam & Frodo are on their own in Mordor ; and that they need to come up with a better plan. It’s quite clear the hobbits have very little hope of making it, if they are even alive still… yet Aragorn is more than ready to lead pretty much every Elf and Man in the land (and in his schmaltzy new digs, too) to certain death just to give the two losers 0.0005 more picochances ? Meh. After the overwhelming victories at Helm’s Deep, Isengard and Pellenor, the alliance with the Ents and the death of the Witch King, the situation is not \*that \*grim anymore. > [@](#): > > Also, why Frodo didn’t just kill Gollum. Again yes, I know he is essential to the plot and to Frodo’s characterisation re mercy etc, but again, most important/dangerous/powerful object in Middle Earth and some grubby little oik would do anything to get it? Off with his head! Frodo’s a bit under the weather at that point, can’t blame him for making less-than-optimal calls. Dude’s whacked on uncut Ring o’ Pow’, cut him some slack, man :). Plus, besides the whole mercy/redemption shebang, the truth is they needed him. He’s trekked through Mordor once, he knows the way through the Marshes and around the Gate, and how to orient himself without the Sun & stars once inside. He’s also very good at not being noticed, scouting ahead and the like. Finally, in case of Orc patrols on the way, my money’s on the neurotic neck snapper\*, not on the pudgy gardener with the glow-in-the-dark sword. - band name ! ---
**Author:** ![vison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e47774/32.png) [@vison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vison)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/75 "2008-12-30T05:39:17Z")
An “artist” named Rowena Morrill illustrated some scenes from LOTR. If you thought the Hildebrandt brothers art was awful, the sight of Ms. Morrill’s pictures might prove too much for you. I googled her website but there are no LOTR pictures there. I know where there are some on another LOTR website, but I’m not sure of the propriety of linking to them, so I will refrain. I guess I could PM the link to anyone who asks. It’s worth it, in a strange and painful way. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/76 "2008-12-30T06:20:47Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I’m curious - what is/was the “official” reason ? Besides “'cause there’d be no plot then” obviously. > I always figured the Eagles would’ve been much too high profile : finding a trio of hobbitses hoofing through Mordor when you don’t even imagine they might be there is a tough task for The Eye. Spotting a bunch of giant birds making a beeline for Mount Dooooom ? That’s a mite easier, True, plus the Eagles aren’t Gandalf’s trained pet birds. Tolkien changed his mind about what Eagles were a couple of times, but at the time he wrote LOTR he seems to have thought of them as embodied spirits answering to Manwe (who outranks Gandalf and everyone else in Middle-earth). They were only to intervene on behalf of the forces of good in extreme cases. > [@](#): > > the Nazguls have giant flying… things of their own (can’t remember their name, and I’ve misplaced my old copy of MERP). They weren’t really given names, although they were described in the text as “fell beasts” and that kind of stuck. > [@](#): > > Precisely _because_ they’re inexperienced, weed-tokin’ and above all, simple minded morons. They’re the only folk in the entire world who don’t go “muahahaha, now I have THE RING !”, because they have no idea what to do with it. To them, it’s just a Ring of Invisibility. Which comes handy at birthday parties or for avoiding nasty relatives, but other than that ? Meh, t’ain’t worth a good mug o’ beer by the fire, Mister Frodo. With a ring like that, Sam could be the greatest gardener in the WORLD! > [@](#): > > What is not readily apparent however, is why Gandalf, Aragorn & co. do not figure the whole thing has gone pear shaped once Sam & Frodo are on their own in Mordor ; and that they need to come up with a better plan. It’s quite clear the hobbits have very little hope of making it, if they are even alive still… yet Aragorn is more than ready to lead pretty much every Elf and Man in the land (and in his schmaltzy new digs, too) to certain death just to give the two losers 0.0005 more picochances ? Meh. After the overwhelming victories at Helm’s Deep, Isengard and Pellenor, the alliance with the Ents and the death of the Witch King, the situation is not \*that \*grim anymore. There is no Plan B. Either Frodo gets the Ring to Mount Doom, or all is lost. 0.0005 more picochances is better than none, and it’s better to die on your feet than live on your knees. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/77 "2008-12-30T06:32:22Z")
Developmental stagnation. Across thousands and thousands of years with bright human individuals all around there was virtually no social or technological advancement or development whatsoever. It was largely a stagnant society. It almost seems at times that the orcs and bad guys are the only ones being clever re inventing machines of destruction and stuff. All the “good” people are intellectually placid. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/78 "2008-12-30T14:18:48Z")
And the Elves liked it that way, Tolkien wrote in his letters. They wanted, if they could, to keep Middle-earth as a quiet, tranquil garden forever and ever, amen. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/79 "2008-12-30T14:30:40Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Every writing rookie may learn that, but not every writing rookie is the proud producer of one of the best selling books in all of history, now are they? I think it was a popular book originally because it was unique for its time. Also its writing style probably wasn’t unusual for its time, and wholly appropriate for such an epic. But I think its popularity since then is a self-fulfilling rollercoaster, if I may mix my metaphors. Once a work of art or entertainment has been lauded as a milestone and representative of a new movement of its time, then it’s almost impossible to argue its negative points without being beaten down by the blindly diehard fans. Any negative point, no matter how reasonable it’s presented, will have some stubborn, and not necessarily logical, counter argument. I see the same thing with a lot of the recent pop culture that I don’t especially enjoy. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/80 "2008-12-30T15:11:15Z")
GuanoLad - I think you’ve got a good point. Once a work becomes an icon it is harder to critique. However, it can be done. The fact that there a number of different resonses in this thread shows that. As to the style of the book, it’s no harder for a modern American to get into than many other classics. If I pick up one of the great Russian novels, or Dickens, or Austen, it takes me a while to get used to the writing style. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031.md?page=5)