# LOTR fans - What's the book's weakest point? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 29, 2008, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031 "2008-12-29T03:57:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/81 "2008-12-30T15:32:07Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Yes, I’m going to blame that on the appearance of Sauron himself upthread. I’m sure he’s managed to subtly deflect all attention from himself somehow. I still have SOME of my powers, you know. Question on the cover art … I distinctly remember from my high-school days (early 80s) a book cover (or maybe just an illustration on a calendar) that featured the Fellowship. Aragorn had long, flowing red curls, and looked sorta pudgy. The rest of the Fellowship looked equally silly, aothough it was obvious the artist was trying very very hard to make them look heroic. Anybody remember this? I’d love to see it again, just to laugh at it. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/82 "2008-12-30T15:35:19Z")
Sounds like a [Hildebrandt](http://img-fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/hildebrandt/fellowship.jpg) image. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/83 "2008-12-30T15:41:08Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > Sounds like a [Hildebrandt](http://img-fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/hildebrandt/fellowship.jpg) image. That’s dang close to what I remember seeing, but I’d swear that Aragorn (third from right) had curly red hair. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/84 "2008-12-30T16:02:38Z")
Egads, Rowena and the Hildebrandts, ugh! After those lovely early years where the JRRT calenders were illustrated by JRRT’s drawings themselves, it was quite traumatic to see the later versions. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/85 "2008-12-30T16:18:26Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > But I think its popularity since then is a self-fulfilling rollercoaster, if I may mix my metaphors. Once a work of art or entertainment has been lauded as a milestone and representative of a new movement of its time, then it’s almost impossible to argue its negative points without being beaten down by the blindly diehard fans. Any negative point, no matter how reasonable it’s presented, will have some stubborn, and not necessarily logical, counter argument. I see the same thing with a lot of the recent pop culture that I don’t especially enjoy. Or, a genre-defining piece of work becomes the origins of conventions for work that follows. So, there is something inherently ‘right’ about it because it is the ground-zero basis of comparison for all else related to it. Doesn’t mean you have to like it, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/86 "2008-12-30T16:19:39Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > Sounds like a [Hildebrandt](http://img-fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/hildebrandt/fellowship.jpg) image. I have (had?) that illustration on the cover of a Tolkien encyclopedia of some sort. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/87 "2008-12-30T16:43:59Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Heh. Those ACE covers were the first copies of the books I ever saw, when my big sister was reading them. Good times. > > Another gripe: Theoden is scraping the bottom of the barrel for troops at the Battle of Helm’s Deep. Then he’s got a gigantic army just in time to ride to the rescue of Minas Tirith. I’d be asking, “Where the hell were you guys a few days ago?” I don’t understand this complaint. It’s not like they had cell phones. Or landline phones. Or telegraphs. Or printing presses. Theoden’s problem is that Saruman was going to hit him before he could do a proper muster. It takes days for him to raise the army that goes to the rescue of Minas Tirith. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/88 "2008-12-30T17:38:56Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > I have (had?) that illustration on the cover of a Tolkien encyclopedia of some sort. Robert Foster’s _Complete Guide to Middle-earth_. An excellent resource, despite the Hildebrandt cover: [Amazon.com: Tolkien's World from A to Z: The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth: 9780345449764: Robert Foster: Books](http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Guide-Middle-Earth-Robert-Foster/dp/0345449762/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230658658&sr=1-1) ---
**Author:** ![MichaelQReilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@MichaelQReilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelQReilly)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/89 "2008-12-30T18:43:20Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > Sounds like a [Hildebrandt](http://img-fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/hildebrandt/fellowship.jpg) image. Oh man, Aragorn looks like a pirate. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/90 "2008-12-30T18:52:44Z")
> [@MichaelQReilly](#): > > Oh man, Aragorn looks like a pirate. And Sam seems to be wearing Barney Rubble’s vest. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/91 "2008-12-30T18:54:27Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > Sounds like a [Hildebrandt](http://img-fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/hildebrandt/fellowship.jpg) image. Oh. My. Motherfelching. God. Poor Gimli. And though I never had a Legolas-liking bone in my body… man, frills fur AND stockings ? All in white ? I know his relationship with beardy boy is more than a little gay but…🙂 ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/92 "2008-12-30T19:10:18Z")
> [@MichaelQReilly](#): > > Oh man, Aragorn looks like a pirate. I don’t think I’ll ever be able to think of him as anything but Arrr-agorn again. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/93 "2008-12-30T19:10:33Z")
To my mind, Tolkein had a habit of occassionally going too far with his homage to heroic poetry. I don’t mean simply in adding reams of poetry he wrote to his books, but in terms of adding stuff to his plots that would sound good in a heroic poem, but are difficult to believe in ‘live action’ as it were. I remember one example of this, when (I believe) Theodin blows a horn so loud it “burst asunder”. In a heroic poem you can get away with that sort of imagry, but it is ludicrous in ‘live action’. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/94 "2008-12-30T19:28:02Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > yet Aragorn is more than ready to lead pretty much every Elf and Man in the land (and in his schmaltzy new digs, too) to certain death just to give the two losers 0.0005 more picochances ? Order of the Stick #618 “Come back here and die for my fleeting tactical advantage!” ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/95 "2008-12-30T19:30:25Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > To my mind, Tolkein had a habit of occassionally going too far with his homage to heroic poetry. I don’t mean simply in adding reams of poetry he wrote to his books, but in terms of adding stuff to his plots that would sound good in a heroic poem, but are difficult to believe in ‘live action’ as it were. > > I remember one example of this, when (I believe) Theodin blows a horn so loud it “burst asunder”. In a heroic poem you can get away with that sort of imagry, but it is ludicrous in ‘live action’. Um…but LoTR isn’t live action. It’s a book. I’d go so far as to call it a prose poem. That complaint strikes me as akin to complaining about the Professor’s relaying of Sam’s thoughts, because of couse in “live action” it’s not possible to hear what other people are thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/96 "2008-12-30T19:40:36Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Um…but LoTR isn’t live action. It’s a book. I’d go so far as to call it a prose poem. That complaint strikes me as akin to complaining about the Professor’s relaying of Sam’s thoughts, because of couse in “live action” it’s not possible to hear what other people are thinking. I know it is a book. :rolleyes: I disagree it is any sort of “poem”. It _contains_ poetry, certainly, but it is not _itself_ poetry - and hence the difficulty with _on occasion_ using the conventions appropriate to heroic poetry. It breaks the admittedly somewhat fragile suspension of disbelief. The reader can picture in his or her mind the tropes of fantasy well enough - magical beings and the like; the reader can certainly accept the conventions of literature, such as hearing thoughts; but it is difficult, at least to this reader, to accept a man blowing on a horn so hard as to, quite literally, “blow it asunder” - in the same work where we are supposed to be immersed in the ‘realism’ of the companion’s trip towards Mordor. That’s my complaint - he _on occasion_ goes to far in adopting the conventions of heroic poetry into a different medium. If you like it, cool; to me, that’s a flaw. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/97 "2008-12-30T19:45:27Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I know it is a book. :rolleyes: > > I disagree it is any sort of “poem”. It _contains_ poetry, certainly, but it is not _itself_ poetry - and hence the difficulty with _on occasion_ using the conventions appropriate to heroic poetry. > > It breaks the admittedly somewhat fragile suspension of disbelief. The reader can picture in his or her mind the tropes of fantasy well enough - magical beings and the like; the reader can certainly accept the conventions of literature, such as hearing thoughts; but it is difficult, at least to this reader, to accept a man blowing on a horn so hard as to, quite literally, “blow it asunder” - in the same work where we are supposed to be immersed in the ‘realism’ of the companion’s trip towards Mordor. > > That’s my complaint - he _on occasion_ goes to far in adopting the conventions of heroic poetry into a different medium. If you like it, cool; to me, that’s a flaw. So Theoden blowing apart a horn is out, but magic rings, swords that glow in the presence of certain evil beings, walking trees, and eagles big enough to carry grown men on their backs are okay? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/98 "2008-12-30T19:53:56Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > So Theoden blowing apart a horn is out, but magic rings, swords that glow in the presence of certain evil beings, walking trees, and eagles big enough to carry grown men on their backs are okay? Sure, because those things are part and parcel of the universe he’s creating. Extra powerful lungs are not, really. The point of blowing a horn asunder is to indicate _poetic_ exaggeration - he was blowing really hard because he was very moved. Hence, if one was making a movie of the book, one could without shame or remorse _film_ “…magic rings, swords that glow in the presence of certain evil beings, walking trees, and eagles big enough to carry grown men on their backs”. But I dare you to film an old king “blowing a horn asunder”. It would be Monty-Pithonesque. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/99 "2008-12-30T20:06:41Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Sure, because those things are part and parcel of the universe he’s creating. Extra powerful lungs are not, really. > > The point of blowing a horn asunder is to indicate _poetic_ exaggeration - he was blowing really hard because he was very moved. > > Hence, \*\*if one was making a movie of the book, \*\*one could without shame or remorse _film_ “…magic rings, swords that glow in the presence of certain evil beings, walking trees, and eagles big enough to carry grown men on their backs”. But I dare you to film an old king “blowing a horn asunder”. It would be Monty-Pithonesque. 😃 My point (lost now to the bellies of hamsters) is that I think you’re missing part of the central conceit of the book. In pretending to be the translator of an ancient manuscript, taken from stories originally written down by multiple authors and then copied and recopied by multiple scribes and redactors long before the invention of printing, Tolkien was quite justified in including such unrealistic details, because they were accretions added by later generations. Take, for instance, my favorite passage; Boromir’s makeshift funeral. In real-world terms in makes no sense for Aragorn, Legolas, & Gimli to take as long honoring him as they do, and far less that they could COMPOSE A SONG ON THE SPOT about him. But it is believable that at some point in the 4th age, someone wrote a song in praise of Boromir–either Aragorn or Faramir might have done so, or commissioned its composition–and that, in the process of compiling the Red Book, one of the scribes assigned to do so decided to include that song in the narrative as if Aragorn & Legolas actually sang it at the funeral. This fits the genre. ETA: Bolding mine. Also, it’s the 30th, and I don’t admit the movies exist on even days. You guys dreamt it up while high on pipe-weed. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031/100 "2008-12-30T20:22:58Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > My point (lost now to the bellies of hamsters) is that I think you’re missing part of the central conceit of the book. In pretending to be the translator of an ancient manuscript, taken from stories originally written down by multiple authors and then copied and recopied by multiple scribes and redactors long before the invention of printing, Tolkien was quite justified in including such unrealistic details, because they were accretions added by later generations. Take, for instance, my favorite passage; Boromir’s makeshift funeral. In real-world terms in makes no sense for Aragorn, Legolas, & Gimli to take as long honoring him as they do, and far less that they could COMPOSE A SONG ON THE SPOT about him. But it is believable that at some point in the 4th age, someone wrote a song in praise of Boromir–either Aragorn or Faramir might have done so, or commissioned its composition–and that, in the process of compiling the Red Book, one of the scribes assigned to do so decided to include that song in the narrative as if Aragorn & Legolas actually sang it at the funeral. This fits the genre. > > ETA: > Bolding mine. Also, it’s the 30th, and I don’t admit the movies exist on even days. You guys dreamt it up while high on pipe-weed. In essence, you do not see these parts as _flaws_, but as integral to the work (and yes, the funeral of Boromir, a favorite passage of yours, is what I was going to mention next - it’s an absurdity 😉 ). Fair enough, but I do not see it that way - because he doesn’t go whole hog. He’s _not_ writing an epic poem, and at other points (i.e. most of the time) he’s clearly ignoring the “this was written down through the ages by multiple ancient scribes” conceit and writing in the modern format. It is similar to his other changes of tone his works suffer from - for example, The Hobbit changes from what is clearly intended as a children’s fairy story to heroic fantasy. In reality, it is obvious that the good professor very much admired romantic/heroic poetry (much of his work is based on his appreciation of such stuff), and simply could not resist adding such flourishes _on occasion_. He did not do it _consistently_, thankfully, because a book of that length written entirely in that style would be very difficult to read. But his inclusions are somewhat jarring and the book would have been better without 'em (or have them moved to the footnotes). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fans-whats-the-books-weakest-point/479031.md?page=6)