LOTR fans - What's the book's weakest point?

[TWDuke]

I’m kind of surprised the change of tone from the beginning to the end of the book is seen as a a negative. It starts out in a pastoral setting, with an old curmudgeon celebrating his birthday by playing a practical joke with a magic ring. Then it turns into a journey by four little men to deliver an important item into the hands of some elves who will know better than they what to do with it. Then it becomes a perilous journey into the heart of darkness, capped off with an apocalyptic battle. I consider the changes in tone as the story deepens and darkens one of the book’s major assets and evidence that Tolkien was a much better writer (as opposed to mythmaker) than even his fans sometimes give him credit for.

I could do without Old Man Willow.

[DSYoungEsq]

@GuanoLad

I think it was a popular book originally because it was unique for its time. Also its writing style probably wasn’t unusual for its time, and wholly appropriate for such an epic.

But I think its popularity since then is a self-fulfilling rollercoaster, if I may mix my metaphors. Once a work of art or entertainment has been lauded as a milestone and representative of a new movement of its time, then it’s almost impossible to argue its negative points without being beaten down by the blindly diehard fans. Any negative point, no matter how reasonable it’s presented, will have some stubborn, and not necessarily logical, counter argument. I see the same thing with a lot of the recent pop culture that I don’t especially enjoy.

Please, please note that I did NOT criticize the fact that there are those who dislike the lengthy descriptions. I simply said it’s sad that many modern readers prefer to eschew such descriptiveness. I also rejected outright the assertion that such descriptions are inherently poor authoring technique.

There are, of course, flaws to the work. I offered my own suggestions on that point. This shows I’m not some blind fan who can’t stand to hear his favorite author critiqued.

[DSYoungEsq]

Malthus, I think you are being overly critical. I, for one, never stopped and questioned as I read it the horn being broken asunder. In a world where trees can talk and walk, and where a king can live for hundreds of years, where men can slay demons by the hundreds without serious hurt, who is to say that a suddenly rejuvenated king, touched with the old powers, could not take a horn horn and burst it apart, especially if that horn was not an integral whole in the first place, but perhaps a composite held together by leather or some such?

IF you want to pick at a book, ANY book, it is easy to do so. Name a book, ANY book, and I’ll read it and pick it apart. I’ll point out flaws, inconsistencies and silly passages. Part of where enjoyment comes from reading is in learning to overlook such things unless they are so jarring that they cannot be overlooked. If you go into a work with a critical eye, you will spot these things, and it will spoil the work for you.

Of course, if these are things that came to you later, on second thought, that’s totally different. But in that case, I suggest recalling how you felt the first time through.

[Captain_Carrot]

Am I the only one who has read the books and seen the movies and enjoyed both?

[TWDuke]

@Captain_Carrot

Am I the only one who has read the books and seen the movies and enjoyed both?

I think the majority of book fans appreciated the movies, although those who didn’t seem to be more vocal about it. But that doesn’t mean there weren’t some things the book did better and some that the movies did better, sometimes simply because of differences between media but sometimes attributable to changes in the story. For instance, the movie created a real sense of unrelenting urgency around getting the Ring to Rivendell that was sadly lacking in the book. On the other hand, the movies had at least one too many characters plummeting to his (apparent) demise.

[Malthus]

@DSYoungEsq

Malthus, I think you are being overly critical. I, for one, never stopped and questioned as I read it the horn being broken asunder. In a world where trees can talk and walk, and where a king can live for hundreds of years, where men can slay demons by the hundreds without serious hurt, who is to say that a suddenly rejuvenated king, touched with the old powers, could not take a horn horn and burst it apart, especially if that horn was not an integral whole in the first place, but perhaps a composite held together by leather or some such?

IF you want to pick at a book, ANY book, it is easy to do so. Name a book, ANY book, and I’ll read it and pick it apart. I’ll point out flaws, inconsistencies and silly passages. Part of where enjoyment comes from reading is in learning to overlook such things unless they are so jarring that they cannot be overlooked. If you go into a work with a critical eye, you will spot these things, and it will spoil the work for you.

Of course, if these are things that came to you later, on second thought, that’s totally different. But in that case, I suggest recalling how you felt the first time through.

The purpose of this thread is for fans to discuss flaws. I’m not saying I did not enjoy the book - I did, a great deal; I consider myself a “fan”. The work was not “spoiled” for me by this.

[vison]

I always enjoy reading the book. Sometimes I like some things better than others, but it varies from reading to reading. Even after over 100 reads, I come across something here or there that strikes me afresh, and I see what I didn’t see before.

The movies were a tragic failure, IMHO. PJ got so much right, but what he got wrong was the one thing he shouldn’t have: the “tone” of the story, its highmindedness, its reality as the history of a long-ago time and place. By the end, the movies had become a CGI/SFX-fest, and the absurdities do not seem less on another viewing but are rather more annoying and mood-destroying. I have 3 versions of the movies, thanks to my family “knowing” what I want as gifts, but I have yet to watch any of them from beginning to end. The kids watch them now and again and I sit down and give it a half hour or so, that’s about all I can take.

OTOH, I am more or less looking forward to the film version of The Hobbit. The book was so silly and twee that nothing anyone could do to it could “spoil” it for me and who knows? it could be wonderful.

[Mr.Svinlesha]

Hiya, squeegee, nice to see you as well.

I don’t see how the eagles being “spiritual beings” would disqualify them from carrying the Ring-bearer and his companions at least to the edge of Mordor, if not all the way to Mount Doom. Their “spirituality” certainly didn’t disqualify them from carry other characters in other circumstances throughout the novels. They even bore the ring-barer himself once: they rescued Bilbo and the dwarves from goblins and wolves after they had escaped the goblin-hole. Bilbo had just found the ring prior to that incident, but that happy coincidence didn’t prevent them from scooping him up and providing him and his party with safe passage.

I also agree that the orcs are difficult to grok. I loved them as a kid, but they don’t really make a lot of sense. I can’t imagine a society composed of individuals who are all so thoroughly, perniciously evil. There’s simply nothing to hold it together; no family, no real bonds of friendship, nothing. It wouldn’t survive: they’d have killed each other off long ago.

I’m also going to go out on a limb here and say that Tolkien’s solution to problem at Cirith Ungol was a bit of stretch: I can see two factions of orcs getting into a conflict with each other, but the idea that they would kill each other almost down to the last orc seems a bit far-fetched to me.

[Fish]

There weren’t enough [del]babes[/del] characters of the [del]hot and sweaty[/del] female persuasion.

In all seriousness, that’s one of the more glaring oversights to me, as I have re-read the stories in recent years: almost no women. The plot-pertinent female characters can be enumerated on the fingers of one hand, and that’s including Shelob. In the books, Arwen and Goldberry do nothing; Lobelia Sackville-Baggins is the most memorable never-heard character in the book; Galadriel is sad and gives them gifts; Shelob, the main female villain, has fewer lines than a gabby nurse in the Houses of Healing; and Sam suddenly starts pining toward the end for some skirt we’ve never heard of before. You have to read a freakin’ appendix to find out who Aragon’s squeeze is, and we read more about a woman (Luthien) who is centuries dead than we know about Arwen!

Frodo, Boromir, Gandalf, Saruman, Sauron, Bilbo, Eomer, Legolas, Gimli: bachelors
Merry, Pippin, Aragorn, Samwise, Faramir: get married at the end
Denethor, Theoden, Elrond(?), Treebeard(?): widowers
Butterbur, Wormtongue, Gaffer: no idea

In other words, of all the characters in the book, there’s only three couples, and one of ‘em ain’t gettin’ any (Celeborn). Bombadil has Goldberry, and Farmer Maggot has Mrs. Maggot.

It’s a big jarring when you realize what a big, burly, manly, testosteroney Adventure all these big boys are going out on. No chicks allowed.

[Lightray]

The spiritual nature of giant eagles was not the problem with sending the One Ring eagleback to Mordor. The problem was that they needed to get the Ring to Mount Doom without Sauron noticing it.

Giant eagles known to be servants of Manwë are not a low-profile plan.

Recall that Sauron knew that the Ring was in the Shire, and had the Black Riders out looking for it. Also, Sauron had spies of his own watching things. Sudden flights of passenger-laden eagles out of the Shire, or Rivendell, or Lothlórien would’ve given the game up in an instant. (even worse if the eagles actually are some type of maiar, since they’re apt to be even more conspicuous.)

Plus, I’m minded to think that Sauron mounted the Nazgûl on fell beasts specifically because he’s the kind of guy who’d think “Obviously they’d send the One Ring off to be destroyed on eagleback – only an idiot wouldn’t see that is the smartest thing to do!”

Well, actually he’d never have thought they’d actually try to destroy his Precious, but the fell beasts were definitely there to protect his airspace.

edit: Also, word to Fish. More wimmins needed. Particularly, more elvish women, since almost all we see them do in the legendarium is die tragically. Galadriel is the exception, but the entire time her brothers and kin are off fighting Morgoth she’s… sitting in Melian’s court. Baking lembas, apparently.

[Morgyn]

@Fish

<snippage>In other words, of all the characters in the book, there’s only three couples, and one of ‘em ain’t gettin’ any (Celeborn). Bombadil has Goldberry, and Farmer Maggot has Mrs. Maggot.

What makes you say that Celeborn wasn’t getting any? curious

As to the Gaffer, I’m moderately certain he was a widower, since Sam never mentions his mother but talks about his father quite a bit.

[What_Exit]

@Morgyn

What makes you say that Celeborn wasn’t getting any? curious

As to the Gaffer, I’m moderately certain he was a widower, since Sam never mentions his mother but talks about his father quite a bit.

Believe it or not Tolkien had some writings and musings about Elven sex lives. Apparently after the first several hundred years of marriage they basically stop.

[Kobal2]

@Mr.Svinlesha

I also agree that the orcs are difficult to grok. I loved them as a kid, but they don’t really make a lot of sense. I can’t imagine a society composed of individuals who are all so thoroughly, perniciously evil. There’s simply nothing to hold it together; no family, no real bonds of friendship, nothing. It wouldn’t survive: they’d have killed each other off long ago.

Yes, they would have, and they do whenever there’s a break in the chain of command (Cirith Ungol, the twin patrol that picks up Pippin and Merry). To me, they’re not a viable “race” at all, more like beasts consciously engineered to fight and nothing else, thus bred for aggressivity, cruelty etc… Their bonds are half-tribal, half-Spartan in nature : respect authority & strength, might is right, the best soldiers get to rise through the ranks. What holds them together is the will of Sauron & Saruman, and the fear of them that’s ingrained into their very being.

I find it interesting that so many people take issue with the orcs though - I never really did. The concept of an entire race of 100% evil bad guys isn’t that hard to swallow when you’ve been fed Evil Nasty Nazi Germans throughout your whole childhood I suppose ;). And now that I’ve grown wiser, well, orcs aren’t that different from men, are they ?

What I never could stomach were the elves - they’re just soooo perfect.

They live forever, unless they choose not to. They all sing beautifully. Each of them fights like a hundred men, can shoot his bow with pinpoint precision and machine-gun ROFs. They’re silent as the grave when they want to stealth around. They can run for days without sleeping. They’re all achingly beautiful, inspiringly noble and delightfully graceful. They can see for miles. Everything they create is magicomystical (Lembas always tastes great and never goes stale. The cloaks are lightweight, yet warm as heavy wool, and have chameleon powers. The ropes will never break nor slip, but when you’re down the cliff the knot knows to untie itself etc…).
Not *one *of them is a traitor, an infirm, a coward or a fool, no no no - that’s for puny little Men like Denethor, Theoden, Grima or Boromir. They’re an whole species of Mary Sues.
Yet somehow… they’re losing a war and are a civilization in decline ? Come again ?

[Lightray]

@Kobal2

Not *one *of them is a traitor, an infirm, a coward or a fool, no no no - that’s for puny little Men like Denethor, Theoden, Grima or Boromir. They’re an whole species of Mary Sues.

Ya need to read the Silmarilion. Fëanor is a right insufferable prat, and several of his kids didn’t fall far from that bush.

But the elf traitor is Maeglin. His dad, Eöl, was no great shakes, either.

Also, the elf Saeros was kind of a jerk. But I always forget his name.

[Pyper]

Fish beat me to the complaint about the lack of female characters. Except for Eowyn, women are simply placeholders for men to admire as one would admire a beautiful statue. They are less than one dimensional, they are zero dimensional! Arwen has exactly one line in the entire trilogy! One!

I see Tom Bombadil has been mentioned many times, as well as the extreme over-detail that does nothing to further the plot, so I won’t get into those points.

Another thing that really bothered me that I don’t see mentioned here is the scourging of the Shire. The hobbits go through an epic journey, to the heart of what is basically Hell itself, they return home, and then they have to fight this silly half-assed fight, with a silly half-assed Saruman? It brought the whole sweeping arc of the story to a screeching halt. I’ve heard arguments about how this is actually a brilliant episode that brings the reality of war home to the hobbits, but the tone of it was anything but serious. It seemed petty, pathetic, and again, silly. Saruman is “Sharky?” They’ve locked up the town busybody? Oh noes! Nope, didn’t like it.

[squeegee]

@Mr.Svinlesha

Hiya, squeegee, nice to see you as well.

I don’t see how the eagles being “spiritual beings” would disqualify them from carrying the Ring-bearer and his companions at least to the edge of Mordor, if not all the way to Mount Doom.

I just meant that, in the books and the movie, there was a really big deal made of Gandalf not being able to take the ring, and that Gandalf possessing it would be really bad. Gandalf is a Maia. The (great) eagles are presumable Maia as well, so it would be really bad if a Maia (eagles or Gandalf) got a hold of the Ring.

I agree, this falls apart a bit since the Eagles transported Bilbo (w/ Ring) once. But perhaps a longer journey with the Ring, which had “awakened” and its Master was calling it, would be a problem.

That’s all.

[Kobal2]

@Pyper

Fish beat me to the complaint about the lack of female characters. Except for Eowyn, women are simply placeholders for men to admire as one would admire a beautiful statue. They are less than one dimensional, they are zero dimensional! Arwen has exactly one line in the entire trilogy! One!

Ah, but you forget the most amusing part : Eowyn, the only non-placeholder female, doesn’t achieve said more-than-ornamental status until she passes herself off and acts as a man. How’s that for patriarcal misoginy ? :p.

[Mr.Svinlesha]

*The spiritual nature of giant eagles was not the problem with sending the One Ring eagleback to Mordor. The problem was that they needed to get the Ring to Mount Doom without Sauron noticing it.

Giant eagles known to be servants of Manwë are not a low-profile plan.

Recall that Sauron knew that the Ring was in the Shire, and had the Black Riders out looking for it. Also, Sauron had spies of his own watching things. Sudden flights of passenger-laden eagles out of the Shire, or Rivendell, or Lothlórien would’ve given the game up in an instant. (even worse if the eagles actually are some type of maiar, since they’re apt to be even more conspicuous.)*

Yeah, maybe but:

1. they didn’t even discuss the possibility during the great council, and reject for some tactical or strategic reason. They never even considered the option, despite the fact that the eagles were known to be noble, intelligent, and good.

2. the riders had been unhorsed a few days prior to the council, and it took them a couple of months to get back to Mordor and mount their fell beasts. Sauron had no air defense at all at that point, and Gwahir could have landed on Mount Doom entirely unopposed.

This strikes me as the absolutely weakest link in the trilogy.

[RiverRunner]

@Trocisp

Wait… they made a book about it?

You shall burn for that. Oh, yes, you shall burn . . .

@Kobal2

Ah, but you forget the most amusing part : Eowyn, the only non-placeholder female, doesn’t achieve said more-than-ornamental status until she passes herself off and acts as a man. How’s that for patriarcal misoginy ? :p.

Hardly misogyny. The whole point of Eowyn’s character was that she longed for greatness but was not given any sort of chance to achieve it. Since her society would not allow her show her valor, she had to manufacture a chance to do it herself.

Also, I must point out that Galadriel was hardly a “placeholder female.” She was the most powerful elf in Middle Earth.

RR

[Elendil_s_Heir]

@Captain_Carrot

Am I the only one who has read the books and seen the movies and enjoyed both?

Me too. They’re pretty different and they each have their strengths and weaknesses. I could nitpick both to death, which of course is something you only do with something you love - if you hate it, well then, you hate it, and no further cogitation is necessary. But I love 'em both.

Mr. Svinlesha, I believe that at the Council of Elrond there was a little discussion of using Eagles to get the Ring to Mount Doom, but it was dropped pretty fast.

Another nitpick: Sauron would have had guards posted at the gate to the fires of Mount Doom. ROTK mentions that he regularly has orcs clear the pathway of cooled magma so that it’s kept accessible; it’s just crazy (a la the exhaust port of the Death Star) that it’s not also guarded.