# LOTR - Fellowship: Why didn't Gendalf just use magic when fighting? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 9, 2002, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fellowship-why-didnt-gendalf-just-use-magic-when-fighting/141508 "2002-12-09T14:30:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![bernse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@bernse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bernse)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fellowship-why-didnt-gendalf-just-use-magic-when-fighting/141508/1 "2002-12-09T14:30:27Z")
I just sat through FOTR again. Great show. Of course, since I’m on my 6th viewing, I’m starting to critque it. 😉 So, in the Cave-Troll scene why didn’t Gendalf just use some Wizard Magic to get rid of all the Orcs? Surely he has enough powers to do that, doesn’t he? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fellowship-why-didnt-gendalf-just-use-magic-when-fighting/141508/2 "2002-12-09T15:18:18Z")
That’s a good question, because in the book, he does. However, he is very hesitant to do so, because he’s aware of the presence of the Balrog - or at least of the presence of some large source of magic. Blasting a bunch of orcs with his staff would be the equivalent of sending up a flare saying, “Here I am, Balrog! Come toss me down into the pits of Moria!” His intention was to get through Moria as quickly and stealthily as possible. Also, there is the danger of sending up that same flare with the message of, “Hey, Sauron! I’m over here in Moria, prancing around with your little Trinket! I’ll be going over to Lothlorien next, if you wanna have tea!” ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fellowship-why-didnt-gendalf-just-use-magic-when-fighting/141508/3 "2002-12-09T15:25:30Z")
Not really. That isn’t the reason. Fact is, Gandalf is usually forbidden to use his full power. He may well have been able to defeat the Witch-King (Nazgul #1) at the gatesof Gondor, but that wasn’t his job. The Valar forbade the Istari from directly trying to destroy Sauron; it was the job of Men, Dwarves, Elves, and Hobbits to do so. Gandalf, you’ll notice, worked very hard to get them to fight. He didn’t go out and kill the enemy so much as get others to defend themselves. He didn’t fight the Witch King, but countered his unnatural Fear. > [@](#): > > Also, there is the danger of sending up that same flare with the message of, “Hey, Sauron! I’m over here in Moria, prancing around with your little Trinket! I’ll be going over to Lothlorien next, if you wanna have tea!” Possibly, but I suspect even Sauron would have trouble finding Gandalf inside of Moria, and the Balrog would not be feeling very much disposed to help the Big S. ---
**Author:** ![Fingolfin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/eada6e/32.png) [@Fingolfin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fingolfin)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fellowship-why-didnt-gendalf-just-use-magic-when-fighting/141508/4 "2002-12-09T15:41:13Z")
This isn’t Harry Potter Land Bernse. Magic, and it’s use, is very limited in Middle Earth. smiling bandit explained it very well. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fellowship-why-didnt-gendalf-just-use-magic-when-fighting/141508/5 "2002-12-09T15:41:39Z")
In general, people didn’t cast spells in Middle Earth. We’re all used to spellcasters in movies & roleplaying games waving their arms, hollering, and throwing fireballs and lightning bolds. That didn’t happen very much in Middle Earch. In _The Hobbit_, the dwarves cast little warding spells on the treasure they got from the trolls, and Gandalf used little firebolts against the wolves, but that’s pretty much for spells. The vast majority of magic use in LOTR was due to magic items, which, granted, Gandalf wore, but as has been stated, he was avoiding the use of. In the book, he used magic to light a torch and said something the equivalent of, “Well, now I’ve done it. I’ve written the words ‘Gandalf is here’ across the sky for all to see.” ---
**Author:** ![Iteki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eada6e/32.png) [@Iteki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iteki)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fellowship-why-didnt-gendalf-just-use-magic-when-fighting/141508/6 "2002-12-09T16:19:04Z")
Apart from that, I believe that the actual _trial_ in itsself was a part of the quest to destroy the ring. That as mentioned here, it had to be done (or not done) by the people who were to live on in the land. God knows it would have been a hella lot faster and less painful to get the eagles to fly that little bugger into Mount Doom, but it was not thier fight to fight. The attempt itsself, that somone was brave enough and selfless enough to do it, was as much a part of the result as the actual destruction of the ring. ---
**Author:** ![bernse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@bernse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bernse)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fellowship-why-didnt-gendalf-just-use-magic-when-fighting/141508/7 "2002-12-09T16:26:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fingolfin \* > \*\*This isn’t Harry Potter Land Bernse. Magic, and it’s use, is very limited in Middle Earth. smiling bandit explained it very well. \*\* Oh please. I was never comparing it to _Harry Potter_. Its an honest question as Magic _was_ used as a weapon earlier in the movie during the battle of the two wizards. I was wondering why it wasn’t in a battle when it sure could have been of use. Thanks for the explanations though, all. Another question: Why were Orcs such terrible fighters? The fellowship of 9 (and later 8) was kicking the asses of hundreds of them. Even the Hobbits were at times (Cave Troll scene again) getting the better of them. What gives? Were they really supposed to be that bad? ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fellowship-why-didnt-gendalf-just-use-magic-when-fighting/141508/8 "2002-12-09T16:32:47Z")
**bernse,** I think **Fingolfin** was going for an analogy, rather than an insult. 😉 Sua ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Righteous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Dr.Righteous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Righteous)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fellowship-why-didnt-gendalf-just-use-magic-when-fighting/141508/9 "2002-12-09T16:37:21Z")
You know, my husband (who has never read the books) asked why the giant eagle just can’t fly them into Mordor. My only response was “because then there wouldn’t be a story”. As for how horrible Orcs are at fighting - I think its because they were never trained. They are big, naturally mean and totally disposable - why would you waste time attempting to train them, since they won’t sit still for it anyhow? You can barely get them all to focus on one task as a group let alone train for weeks at a shot. There are so many more Orcs than men or elves that by sheer numbers they can win in the end. If those meddling kids hadn’t destroyed my ring of power I’d have gotten away with it, too… ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fellowship-why-didnt-gendalf-just-use-magic-when-fighting/141508/10 "2002-12-09T16:49:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bernse \* > \*\*… > Another question: Why were Orcs such terrible fighters? The fellowship of 9 (and later 8) was kicking the asses of hundreds of them. Even the Hobbits were at times (Cave Troll scene again) getting the better of them. What gives? Were they really supposed to be that bad? \*\* A. The Fellowship are Heroes. Heroes tend to win. B. Aragorn is the son of Arathorn, rightful ruler of Arnor and Gondor (he’s also about 75, so he’s been training a lot). Boromir is the son of the Steward of Gondor, second in command of a kingdom. Gimli is a prince. Legolas is a prince. These four guys are some of the toughest warriors around, bar none. They are the standard against which other warriors are judged. I have no issues whatsoever with them slaughtering a couple dozen Uruk Hai. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fellowship-why-didnt-gendalf-just-use-magic-when-fighting/141508/11 "2002-12-09T16:52:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dr. Righteous \* > \*\*You know, my husband (who has never read the books) asked why the giant eagle just can’t fly them into Mordor. My only response was “because then there wouldn’t be a story”. > \*\* The distance from the Shire to Mordor is estimated to be about the same as the distance from London to Budapest. Quite the journey for a giant eagle with a considerable burden (hobbits are small, but not _that_ small. The giant eagle (Gwaihir) tolerated carrying Gandalf from the tower (Orthanc) to Edoras, which is a much shorter distance. He later carries Gandalf from Caradras to… well I’m not sure where he carried him to. Lothlorien, I imagine. Both are not very long distances. Plus, from the Shire (or Rivendell) to Mordor are many obstacles. Saruman had enlisted the help of animals to spy for him (the flock of birds), and Sauron has quite the aviary of horrid flying creatures, all of whom would see an eagle-born hobbit from miles away. The name of the game in Lord of the Rings is stealth (at least for the Ring Bearer), and huge giant eagle lords tend to draw an audience. ---
**Author:** ![bernse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@bernse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bernse)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fellowship-why-didnt-gendalf-just-use-magic-when-fighting/141508/12 "2002-12-09T16:53:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SuaSponte \* > \*\ ***bernse,** I think **Fingolfin** was going for an analogy, rather than an insult. 😉 > > Sua \*\* Fair enough. Need. More. Coffee. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Iteki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eada6e/32.png) [@Iteki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iteki)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fellowship-why-didnt-gendalf-just-use-magic-when-fighting/141508/13 "2002-12-09T17:20:45Z")
**Munch** , not that I am in any way suggesting it would have been an appropriate action, but the eagles would not have needed to bear a whole hobbit… just the ring. If they really _had_ to they could have flown them tho, either by taking relays or in the same way they did at the end of the books when they brought the boys home. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fellowship-why-didnt-gendalf-just-use-magic-when-fighting/141508/14 "2002-12-09T17:29:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Iteki \* > \*\ ***Munch** , not that I am in any way suggesting it would have been an appropriate action, but the eagles would not have needed to bear a whole hobbit… just the ring. If they really _had_ to they could have flown them tho, either by taking relays or in the same way they did at the end of the books when they brought the boys home. \*\* Well, they didn’t really fly them home at the end, just over the gates of Mordor to the awaiting company there. Also, people and creatures are not apt to just hand off the One Ring like a relay baton - you’d really need to relay a Ring bearing hobbit. Relays would still meet the problem of Saruman’s spies and Sauron’s flying Nazgul. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fellowship-why-didnt-gendalf-just-use-magic-when-fighting/141508/15 "2002-12-09T17:47:06Z")
Well, in _The Hobbit_, Gandalf does toast a bunch of orcs with a flash of light, when they try to grab him in the cave. Really, though, it’s much more his style to act subtley. Consider _The Hobbit_ again. In that first fight with the goblins, he kills maybe half a dozen. Nice, but any well-trained warrior could do the same, given a little time. But later on down in the Great Goblin Cavern, he singlehandedly defeats a few thousand. How? By panicking them. The only orc he actually slew there was the King, but he did it in such a way that every other goblin knew it, and knew he could do the same (and more) to them. He specializes in fire, true, but most of what he works with is the fire of emotions, not of heat. ---
**Author:** ![Monstre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Monstre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstre)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fellowship-why-didnt-gendalf-just-use-magic-when-fighting/141508/16 "2002-12-09T17:50:26Z")
> [@](#): > > from **Iteki** > Munch, not that I am in any way suggesting it would have been an appropriate action, but the eagles would not have needed to bear a whole hobbit… just the ring. But is the temptation to use the ring limited to humanoid creatures? How could we be sure that we wouldn’t end up with a Dark Eagle Lord instead? ---
**Author:** ![Riboflavin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Riboflavin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riboflavin)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fellowship-why-didnt-gendalf-just-use-magic-when-fighting/141508/17 "2002-12-09T17:51:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Iteki \* > \*\ ***Munch** , not that I am in any way suggesting it would have been an appropriate action, but the eagles would not have needed to bear a whole hobbit… just the ring. I don’t really don’t get how people can think that having one of the eagles fly the ring in would be a good idea after seeing the movie or reading the book. The ring is not just a little gold circle that has to get tossed in a volcano, it is an incredibly powerful and evil magical artifact with the power to corrupt the minds of those who are near it and especially of those who bear it. Remember the way Bilbo and Gollum obsessed over it? The way Gandalf spent hours in front of the fire after just considering touching it, or his reaction when Frodo tried to give it to him? The way the Council almost came to blows when they were deciding who would carry it? Bormir and his attack on Frodo? If you’ve read the books, remember all of the [spoiler stuff] in Mordor? You can’t just hand the ring to any random person and expect them to actually be able to destroy it, and the Eagles certainly qualify as ‘people’ in that sense. If you just hand the ring to an Eagle and tell him to fly in, what guarantees that he won’t decide to use the ring to help his people? If you have him carry a hobbit with the ring, what’s going to stop him from acting like Boromir and taking the ring away? ---
**Author:** ![Iteki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eada6e/32.png) [@Iteki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iteki)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fellowship-why-didnt-gendalf-just-use-magic-when-fighting/141508/18 "2002-12-09T18:17:11Z")
_goes down in a hail of arrows_ Jesus, I said it _would not be an appropriate action_. The discussion on whether non humanoid races would be less/more drawn to the ring is imho a valid one, but not for this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fellowship-why-didnt-gendalf-just-use-magic-when-fighting/141508/19 "2002-12-09T18:34:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Munch \* > \*\*The distance from the Shire to Mordor is estimated to be about the same as the distance from London to Budapest. Quite the journey for a giant eagle with a considerable burden (hobbits are small, but not _that_ small. \*\* So, what is the average air speed of a hobbit-laden eagle? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fellowship-why-didnt-gendalf-just-use-magic-when-fighting/141508/20 "2002-12-09T18:36:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bernse \* > \*\*Another question: Why were Orcs such terrible fighters? The fellowship of 9 (and later 8) was kicking the asses of hundreds of them. Even the Hobbits were at times (Cave Troll scene again) getting the better of them. What gives? Were they really supposed to be that bad? \*\* Yes. Without giving spoilers, The Two Towers shows us just how cowardly, and disorganised orcs are. At one point, a human army is pursuing a group of orcs and orok-hai. The orcs outnumber the humans by 2 to 1. They have hostages. It’s night. The orcs have far superior vision in the dark. They also have archers. The orcs could use the hostages as a bargaining chip. They don’t. They could split up, move around in shadow and surround the humans. They don’t. Their archers could shoot the humans while remaining beyond the range of human vision. They don’t. Instead, the orcs argue with eachother over food, over who claims credit, over which orc tribe is in charge of the group etc. ``` Remember what Saruman said in the first film. Sauron made the orcs from elves. The orcs are evil and loyal. But mentally, physically, and spiritually they have been twisted and broken, then nailed together again. As Ethilrist explained, the Fellowship are great heroes. The Hobbits are not heroes, but Tolkien describes a subtle magic which protects the Shire and its people. The dwarves and the elves are magical in obvious ways. Part of the Shire's magic is its unobtrusiveness. Until Gollum told him of Bilbo, Sauron never even thought to look for the ring there. Gollum had the ring for centuries. It hasn't made him a wraith. It hasn't made him Suaron's slave. Bilbo had the ring for decades. He didn't use it. He was not corrupted by it. The Witch King stabs Frodo, and leaves the blade's tip in the wound. Aragon and several others state that no human would have lived long enough to reach Rivendell with that wound. But, Frodo does. ``` [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fellowship-why-didnt-gendalf-just-use-magic-when-fighting/141508.md?page=2)