# LOTR - Fellowship: Why didn't Gendalf just use magic when fighting? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 9, 2002, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fellowship-why-didnt-gendalf-just-use-magic-when-fighting/141508 "2002-12-09T14:30:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![deathawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ed8c4c/32.png) [@deathawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deathawk)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fellowship-why-didnt-gendalf-just-use-magic-when-fighting/141508/41 "2002-12-10T13:27:21Z")
One other point to beat an already dead horse. As pointed out, the eagles flying the ring to Oroduin would certainly have been noticed by someone. So I would say that not only would they need to deal with flying Nazgul, spies of Saruman, temptation of the ring and whatever other obstacles might exist, the eagles/hobbits would certainly have been met by Sauron at the cracks of doom. Rather a nasty final boss to meet at the end of the stage I would think. I would also make this point regarding the Istari - the terms of their mission was to organize the defense of the west, but not to match power with power, nor rule by fear. How they interpreted this mission varied, and I think they had free will to determine when & if to use their power. In Gandalf’s case, he really only excercises his full power when faced with a threat that the inhabitants of middle earth could deal with fully themselves i.e. the Balrog & Angmar. Otherwise he remains true and motivates rather than executes. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fellowship-why-didnt-gendalf-just-use-magic-when-fighting/141508/42 "2002-12-10T15:33:02Z")
OOC, why weren’t the Istari allowed to be uber-wizards? For that matter, why didn’t the rest of the Middle-Rarth pantheon smite Sauron from the get-go? ---
**Author:** ![deathawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ed8c4c/32.png) [@deathawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deathawk)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fellowship-why-didnt-gendalf-just-use-magic-when-fighting/141508/43 "2002-12-10T16:09:44Z")
[interpretation of Tolkien Mythos] My reading agrees with some critics - the Istari were not allowed to take direct action due to the disasterous events of the first age. You can make a good argument that Feanor’s rebellion & the willingness of the Noldor to follow him was a direct result of the summons to Aman. This ultimately lead to major physical upheaval with the sinking of Beleriand, although the corruption of Feanor was certainly a major loss. This line of reasoning leads to the thought that the Valar felt best to motivate resistance to Sauron rather than lead it. Also to consider is the theme of the recession of Myth into the pedestrian age of Man. As the history of middle earth progresses, the Valar are less and less directly involved with the mortal lands. [/interpretation of Tolkien Mythos] As far as smiting from the get go, I assume you mean in the second age prior to the forging of the one ring. You want to bear in mind that until the sinking of Numenor, Sauron was able to present a fair face to the world, in his role as corruptor. I can’t find the exact source in The Silmarillion or Lost Tales, but there are notes that Sauron was not identified as being Morgoth’s lieutenant until it was far too late. The White Council of the second age sensed an evil presence in the world, but could not locate its source. There are two attempts at Sauron’s defeat in the Second Age, both of which failed. In the first, Numenor does defeat Sauron, but took him prisoner back to the island. He was then able to complete the corruption of the royal line and cause its destruction via the defiance of the Ban of the Valar. The second, the last alliance also failed due to Isuldur’s refusal to destroy the ring. After this alliance, the elves remaining in middle earth were not strong enough to defeat Sauron on their own. In the third age we have a another factor. This was Saruman’s lust for the ring, which allowed the shadow of Sauron to rise and gain strength in Dol Guldur. Saruman felt the ring would reveal itself if the Sorceror was in fact Sauron, and planned to grab it himself. He thus worked to stall the Council in terms of determining exactly what was going on in Mirkwood. By the time Gandalf does confirm the Sorceror’s identity as Sauron, it was again too late. ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fellowship-why-didnt-gendalf-just-use-magic-when-fighting/141508/44 "2002-12-10T19:28:03Z")
Mentioning Dol Guldur raises another point. The White Council did take on Sauron and drive him out. True, Sauron had planned to retreat to Mordor and probably didn’t put up much of a fight. Nonetheless, Gandalf, Saruman & Co. intended to drive him out by force. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fellowship-why-didnt-gendalf-just-use-magic-when-fighting/141508/45 "2002-12-10T19:29:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by robertliguori \* > \*\*OOC, why weren’t the Istari allowed to be uber-wizards? For that matter, why didn’t the rest of the Middle-Rarth pantheon smite Sauron from the get-go? \*\* Being immortal would kinda skew people’s perception of time. For all we know, they think they _did_ slap him down as soon as he showed up. Plus, there’s that whole predestined fate thing, in which everything that happens in Middle Earth is actually the live action version of a great opera that the Valar & Maiar sang during the First Age. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fellowship-why-didnt-gendalf-just-use-magic-when-fighting/141508/46 "2002-12-10T20:31:13Z")
[nitpick]_Before_the First Age, before the Two Trees, before the coming of the Elves–before _everything_.[/nitpick] ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fellowship-why-didnt-gendalf-just-use-magic-when-fighting/141508/47 "2002-12-10T21:30:18Z")
> [@](#): > > The Hobbits are not heroes, but Tolkien describes a subtle magic which protects the Shire and its people… Part of the Shire’s magic is its unobtrusiveness. An interesting read on that. I always took Gandalf’s mention that even the Shire had a sort of power to resist Sauron related more to the hobbits’ native wholesomeness, love of good, honest living, and disinterest in power and domination (all the things that make it so hard for the ring to corrupt the hobbits and make them so fierce, in their own way, when roused during the Scouring of the Shire). But your point is not out of bounds, I think, considering Tolkien’s continued allusions to hobbits’ skill at being unobtrusive and unseen (even to this day…?). ---
**Author:** ![deathawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ed8c4c/32.png) [@deathawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deathawk)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fellowship-why-didnt-gendalf-just-use-magic-when-fighting/141508/48 "2002-12-10T21:40:20Z")
**Truthseeker** : Oops! And that was the point I was making. They attacked to late. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fellowship-why-didnt-gendalf-just-use-magic-when-fighting/141508/49 "2002-12-10T21:46:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by toadspittle \* > \*\*An interesting read on that. I always took Gandalf’s mention that even the Shire had a sort of power to resist Sauron related more to the hobbits’ native wholesomeness, love of good, honest living, and disinterest in power and domination (all the things that make it so hard for the ring to corrupt the hobbits and make them so fierce, in their own way, when roused during the Scouring of the Shire). \*\* But I view all that as the effect of the Shire’s magic and the Hobbit’s connection to it. Dwarves are brave warriors and the knowledge of mining, forging, and carving stone is in their blood. The elves can walk on snow without sinking or leaving tracks, they are invisible in forests, every thing they make is tinged with magic. ``` Hobbit's got purity, love of hearth and home, but no flashy power. ``` > [@](#): > > \*\* > But your point is not out of bounds, I think, considering Tolkien’s continued allusions to hobbits’ skill at being unobtrusive and unseen (even to this day…?). \*\* I haven’t read ROTK yet. But, I’ve seen the animated version many times and own the record of that film. The following quote will be off in a few minor words. Gandalf “See that Frodo is taller than Bilbo? Merry taller than Frodo? And Pippin taller still? Hobbits are passing from Middle Earth. In time they will vanish into the race of men and be only legend. Still, some will wonder-is there Hobbit in me? Is there?” ---
**Author:** ![deathawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ed8c4c/32.png) [@deathawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deathawk)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fellowship-why-didnt-gendalf-just-use-magic-when-fighting/141508/50 "2002-12-10T22:05:59Z")
DocCathode: That would be straight out of the filmmakers imagination. Your use of the spoiler tag has me wondering if you would prefer not to see this, so: [Spoiler]Prologue from FOTR: > [@](#): > > …but the region in which Hobbits then lived were doubtless the same as those in which they still linger:… Merry & Pippin’s size has a different explanation, explicitly stated in TTT. They drank the draughts of the Ents. This appears to have the effect on mortals of causing continued growth. The explanation is provided by Legolas when that part of the company is re-united at Isengard.[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fellowship-why-didnt-gendalf-just-use-magic-when-fighting/141508/51 "2002-12-10T22:17:59Z")
Right after I hit submit, I realised it might have been made up for the film. I thought of posting again to ask whether it appeared anywhere in Tolkien’s writings. But there’s no reason to post that question. I knew that another Doper would give me the straight dope. I used spoilers since some of the folks reading or even posting to these threads have no knowledge of LOTR other than Jackson’s film. ``` Personally, I've had trouble reading TTT since I lost my Gollum ring( a silver Gollum figure wrapping himself in a circle). I've tried searching my apartment while throwing things over my head and shouting "My Precious!!!! Where is is My Precious???!!!!!" But I just can't find it. ``` ---
**Author:** ![deathawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ed8c4c/32.png) [@deathawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deathawk)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fellowship-why-didnt-gendalf-just-use-magic-when-fighting/141508/52 "2002-12-10T22:30:46Z")
ROFL! Yeah that’s why I used it too. Although I had to re-read the thread since the other thread I’m posting to has gone waaayyyy past the spoiler range… ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fellowship-why-didnt-gendalf-just-use-magic-when-fighting/141508/53 "2002-12-10T22:53:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DocCathode \* > > I haven’t read ROTK yet. But, I’ve seen the animated version many times and own the record of that film. The following quote will be off in a few minor words. Gandalf “See that Frodo is taller than Bilbo? Merry taller than Frodo? And Pippin taller still? Hobbits are passing from Middle Earth. In time they will vanish into the race of men and be only legend. Still, some will wonder-is there Hobbit in me? Is there?” Was that the Bakshi disco extravaganza version, or the Rankin Bass Frodo-of-the-Nine-Fingers-And-The-Ring-of-Doom version? ---
**Author:** ![Tygr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/df788c/32.png) [@Tygr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tygr)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fellowship-why-didnt-gendalf-just-use-magic-when-fighting/141508/54 "2002-12-10T23:06:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow \* > \*\*Plus Sauron had SAM emplacements and antiaircraft guns throughout Mordor. > > I think that’s in an appendix somewhere.\*\* Really? Well, dammit, that’s what I get for skipping _The Silmarillion_. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fellowship-why-didnt-gendalf-just-use-magic-when-fighting/141508/55 "2002-12-10T23:08:35Z")
That would be Rankin Bass. BTW I _like_ that song. Bakshi’s LOTR is only Fellowship and a tiny bit of Two Towers. He had wanted to make 3 films. He got a deal for 2. The second film, covering TTT and ROTK was never made. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-fellowship-why-didnt-gendalf-just-use-magic-when-fighting/141508.md?page=2)