# LOTR: Frodo never had a chance to destroy the One Ring. He is shown from the very start he cannot do it **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [July 20, 2024, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487 "2024-07-20T10:11:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2024, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/181 "2024-08-01T02:28:07Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > In _The Hobbit_ they can, Yeah, i remember that, but I always thought it was Gandalf being able to understand anything. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2024, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/182 "2024-08-01T04:10:27Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > But Eagles being Maia (which Tolkien hadn’t even settled on the existence of when he wrote LOTR) makes more sense to me than “talking animals were just a thing back then” because Middle-Earth is supposed to be prehistoric Europe, and if they were just animals then it raises the question of why we don’t still have talking eagles today, but if they were Maiar it makes sense that they would have retreated to Valinor once the Enemy was no longer present in the lands of Men. There are other “animals that talk”, such as dragons and giant spiders. I guess the spiders descended from ungoliant, who was… Probably maia? I think the dragons are just another class of being, though. And the giant eagles seem comparable to dragons and spiders, except on the side of good. Eagles being descendants of maia, like the spiders, makes sense to me. But i agree that the canonical answer is “it’s not settled”. Whatever they are, they are powerful enough that the ring would be dangerous in their talons. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2024, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/183 "2024-08-01T04:11:30Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > There are other “animals that talk”, such as dragons and giant spiders. I guess the spiders descended from ungoliant, who was… Probably maia? I think the dragons are just another class of being, though. I haven’t considered it, but it makes sense to me that dragons might be fallen Maiar. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2024, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/184 "2024-08-01T04:20:53Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Whatever they are, they are powerful enough that the ring would be dangerous in their talons. That being said, it probably wouldn’t have been a lot more dangerous for an eagle to give Frodo a ride than for Gandalf to accompany Frodo. I think, “that wouldn’t have made a good story” is the real answer. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2024, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/185 "2024-08-01T06:16:55Z")
The Eagles have been described as “heralds of Manwe” At the Black Gate, the Mouth of Sauron states “I am herald and ambassador and may not be harmed.” If heralds have diplomatic protections, they might be required to be noncombatants. In _The Hobbit_, Sauron was operating covertly, so the conflict between the Dwarves and the Goblins was a Third World proxy war where the rules could be circumvented. Saruman and Gandalf were officially supposed to be on the same side, so the Eagles were free to meddle in that fight. But in an open fight against Sauron, the Eagles might have been bound by the same “advise and exhort, but don’t interfere directly” rule that the wizards had originally been operating under. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2024, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/186 "2024-08-01T06:24:10Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > At the Black Gate, the Mouth of Sauron states “I am herald and ambassador and may not be harmed.” The Mouth was almost certainly acting in bad faith. He wouldn’t have hesitated to attack Aragorn or Gandalf if the opportunity had presented itself. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2024, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/187 "2024-08-01T06:25:05Z")
Yeah, but the Eagles would act in good faith. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2024, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/188 "2024-08-01T06:49:56Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > the Eagles would act in good faith. Until you tasked one of them with carrying the Ring to Mordor, at which point all Hell would have broken loose. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2024, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/189 "2024-08-01T07:26:34Z")
Exactly this. Proud, powerful beings like that are the _most_ vulnerable to the Ring, and you don’t want them anywhere near it; especially actually in Mordor, closer to Mount Doom. And they wouldn’t know that the Ring had gotten to the Eagle before it did something like drop them to their death from a thousand feet up. As I’ve said in the past, involving the Eagles is just asking for a flying Dark Lord. ---
**Author:** ![Pavelb1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/439d5e/32.png) [@Pavelb1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pavelb1)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2024, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/190 "2024-08-01T14:25:07Z")
At least they’re somewhere in the ballpark distance-wise as opposed to the craaazzzzyy things time-wise that happen here and in a lot of fantasy worlds actually. “And then Gandalf pissed off for 17 fucking years.” “The Sith havent been seen for 1,000 years.” ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2024, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/191 "2024-08-01T14:46:22Z")
But it was only 50 miles, plus extra for not going in a straight line. And they walked about 12 days. The book is actually extremely careful with times and distances, and i think they all work. Not so much the movie. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2024, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/192 "2024-08-01T20:14:12Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I guess the spiders descended from ungoliant, who was… Probably maia? Ungoliant was a different order of being, a fey. Fey are embodiments of some aspect of creation, such as Ungoliant being an embodiment of Darkness. They don’t show up much in the Third Age works, but I think Goldberry probably was one, and there’s also a reference to there being some sort of sentience associated with the mountain Caradhas. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2024, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/193 "2024-08-01T22:30:36Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Fey are embodiments of some aspect of creation, such as Ungoliant being an embodiment of Darkness. They don’t show up much in the Third Age works, but I think Goldberry probably was one I keep meaning to slap together a half-assed theory that she’s one of those Entwives who left for, if you will, greener pastures… ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2024, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/194 "2024-08-01T23:07:37Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Fey are embodiments of some aspect of creation, such as Ungoliant being an embodiment of Darkness. Which aspect is Tina an embodiment of? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2024, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/195 "2024-08-01T23:17:28Z")
Rocks. 30 of ‘em. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2024, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/196 "2024-08-01T23:52:01Z")
Can they? I don’t recall wargs talking (at least not so that people can understand them) in the _Hobbit_. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2024, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/197 "2024-08-02T01:47:38Z")
I believe when the party were stuck up trees, and the goblins were coming. But was that actual speech or just Gandalf understanding everything? ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2024, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/198 "2024-08-02T05:59:32Z")
They might have understood him, but what’s the intelligence of the wargs in Tolkien? Smarter than wolves? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2024, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/199 "2024-08-02T06:06:16Z")
It seems they are smarter than wolves: > Cunning and malevolent, wargs roam across the remote wilderness or are raised by Goblins and Orcs. Those creatures use wargs as mounts, but a warg will turn on its rider if it feels mistreated or malnourished. Wargs speak in their own language, as well as the Black Speech, and it is assumed they could learn Westron as well, if someone were to teach them. - [SOURCE](https://lotrfanon.fandom.com/wiki/Warg) > In [J. R. R. Tolkien](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._R._R._Tolkien)’s books about [Middle-earth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle-earth), wargs are a malevolent wolf-like [race](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(fantasy)).[[10]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warg#cite_note-13) They are usually in league with the [Orcs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(Middle-earth)) whom they permit to ride on their backs into battle, sharing any spoils. In _[The Hobbit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hobbit)_, they can speak: they plan their part in “a great goblin-raid” on the woodmen’s villages.[[T 3]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warg#cite_note-Frying-pan-12)[[11]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warg#cite_note-14) - [SOURCE](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warg) ETA: > Contrary to their usual depictions in film and television, the Wargs in Tolkien’s novels were highly intelligent animals. In the chapter “Out of the Frying-Pan into the Fire” from _The Hobbit_, **Bilbo** and his friends witness a gathering of Wargs while hiding in some nearby treetops. This scene revealed not only that Wargs had a “dreadful language” of their own but also that they possessed the mental wherewithal to organize meetings with their goblin allies. - [SOURCE](https://www.cbr.com/lord-of-the-rings-wargs-explained/) ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2024, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/200 "2024-08-02T06:10:39Z")
Thank you for the information! The wargs are always a minor obsession with me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487.md?page=11)