# LOTR: Frodo never had a chance to destroy the One Ring. He is shown from the very start he cannot do it **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [July 20, 2024, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487 "2024-07-20T10:11:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2024, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/41 "2024-07-20T20:46:41Z")
So then why does Frodo diminish so much in the six(ish) months it takes him to travel to Mordor? He’s ok with the Ring for 17 years but the last six months are what ruin him? ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2024, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/42 "2024-07-20T20:51:45Z")
See also being stabbed with a Morgul-blade, actually _wearing_ the Ring, and Sauron and the Ring itself _actively_ sensing their time had rolled round again and bending their will on rejoining? A not-so insubstantial amount of being separated from all he holds dear and supporting him, exhaustion, near starvation, a poisoning, and, oh, wait, a justified paranoia that almost everyone he deals with IS actually trying to take the Ring? He deals with a LOT after the start of that second chapter and the 17 year time gap. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2024, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/43 "2024-07-20T20:58:44Z")
> [@ParallelLines](#): > > …actually _wearing_ the Ring… That’s my point. I don’t think he was “actually _wearing_ the Ring” for the 17 years. The ring was in a chest. And, when not worn/held the Ring had vastly diminished power. If it still had an effect then that means the Ring affects people in a radius around it and if that is true it would have corrupted the whole fellowship at the least since they were all hanging around nearby. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2024, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/44 "2024-07-20T21:14:04Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > > I’ll offer this theory: Gandalf’s Plan A was to sacrifice Frodo. > > If that had ever been his plan, he would have murdered Frodo at the outset. Because the kind of person who would make that plan wouldn’t have been able to resist doing so. > > > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > > > Fair comment but, to be fair, Tom kinda breaks all the rules the rest of the world follows. > > > > I know it has been explicitly stated by Tolkien he is not Eru but I still can’t help but think he is. > > Personally, I think that the simplest answer for “Who is Tom Bombadil?” is the one Goldberry gives: “He is.”. He’s a member (the member) of the category of beings who are Tom Bombadil. Nobody else is like him. He’s incomparable! Like… _Hmm_ ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2024, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/45 "2024-07-20T21:20:50Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > > [@ParallelLines](#): > > > > …actually _wearing_ the Ring… > > That’s my point. I don’t think he was “actually _wearing_ the Ring” for the 17 years. The ring was in a chest. And, when not worn/held the Ring had vastly diminished power. If it still had an effect then that means the Ring affects people in a radius around it and if that is true it would have corrupted the whole fellowship at the least since they were all hanging around nearby. IIRC, he would slip it on occasionally, particularly to avoid unwelcome encounters (f’rinstance with Lobelia Sackville-Baggins). Pippin caught him at it once. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2024, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/46 "2024-07-21T03:08:49Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > > [@ParallelLines](#): > > > > …actually _wearing_ the Ring… > > That’s my point. I don’t think he was “actually _wearing_ the Ring” for the 17 years. The ring was in a chest. And, when not worn/held the Ring had vastly diminished power. If it still had an effect then that means the Ring affects people in a radius around it and if that is true it would have corrupted the whole fellowship at the least since they were all hanging around nearby. Okay, I don’t think we’re arguing _that_ point, although there are arguments about how much if at all Frodo used the ring during the 17 years, with some going with the assumption @kaylasdad99 did that he may have used it much like Bilbo did, others that he didn’t until he left the Shire. But, IMHO, he was also far from “keeping it in a chest” per the section I quoted you. To me, it reads like he kept it safe by keeping it on his body the whole time, in almost exactly the way Bilbo did, secure with a chain so it couldn’t “slip away”. Which would imply that even if never worn, he was directly exposed to it for, again _17 years_. And we know from Gollum, that it kept it’s affect on it’s owner despite not being physically in contact with them: > Gollum used to wear it at first, till it tired him; and then he kept it in a pouch next his skin, till it galled him; and now usually he hid it in a hole in the rock on his island, and was always going back to look at it. And still sometimes he put it on, when he could not bear to be parted from it any longer, or when he was very, very, hungry, and tired of fish. So the Ring has a pernicious effect, which it maintains upon it’s possessor even when not directly in contact with it. As others have pointed out, the fact that Frodo used the Ring little if at all, _absolutely_ limited it’s power over him in the long precursor to the actual quest, which certainly, along with his better nature, preserved him from most of the worst of the consequences of ownership. An additional point that you brought up earlier: > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I do not think the Ring could exert power if not worn or held (except maybe in very subtle ways). I think we are all meant to believe that Boromir was a _basically_ good, if hard-driven and ambitious person, but his actions and justifications in trying to take the Ring from Frodo indicated much could be done in possibly subtle (but certainly not VERY subtle ways). It’s not like Boromir ever _wore_ the Ring, and his exposure to it was from a distance and over a pretty short period of time. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2024, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/47 "2024-07-21T04:25:54Z")
> [@Gretzky](#): > > Always his decisions were what was best for his “master” than himself, not ever understanding the importance or reason for the mission. I don’t think this is accurate. Sam was the third one in the Shadow of the Past, listening to Frodo and Gandalf. He learned then what Frodo was facing, and passed the information on to Pippin and Merry, so they would form a team to support Frodo. He also was a secret participant in the Council of Elrond, and learnt as much about the history of the Ring and the need to destroy it as any of the other participants. Then he forced himself into the Fellowhip, because he saw the need to protect Frodo in what was to come. And in the interactions with Gollum as they approached Mordor, he was crucial in protecting Frodo. When he took the Ring after he thought Frodo was dead, he wasn’t some ill-informed yokel. He knew exactly what he was doing and what he was taking on. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2024, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/48 "2024-07-21T04:29:01Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > That’s my point. I don’t think he was “actually _wearing_ the Ring” for the 17 years. The ring was in a chest. And, when not worn/held the Ring had vastly diminished power. If it still had an effect then that means the Ring affects people in a radius around it and if that is true it would have corrupted the whole fellowship at the least since they were all hanging around nearby. Gandalf: > [@](#): > > You are strong and can still in some matters govern yourself, Denethor; yet if you had received this thing, it would have overthrown you. **Were it buried beneath the roots of Mindolluin, still it would burn your mind away** So, no, it’s not a matter of proximity. It’s a matter of **ownership**. Whoever owns - “bears” but not literally - the Ring is most under its influence at any distance, as long as they directly or indirectly control the ring. They have custody. And the Fellowship _was_ being corrupted. Slowly they each would have tried to lay claim to the Ring. Boromir was first to fall. ---
**Author:** ![Coriolanus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coriolanus/32/18769_2.png) [@Coriolanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coriolanus)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2024, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/49 "2024-07-21T12:58:17Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Is the Ring sentient? Gandalf says at least once that the Ring “had a will of its own” and more or less attributes it coming into Bilbo’s possession as something It wanted. If wikipedia counts and the entry of Isildur at least summarising if not directly quoting from “Unfinished Tales” can also be counted on: > Isildur put on the Ring, hoping to escape under the cover of invisibility. Fleeing to the Anduin, he cast off his armour and tried to swim to the other side of the river, but the Ring slipped (of its own volition) from his finger. that would seem to indicate Tolkien thought it sentient. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2024, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/50 "2024-07-21T14:19:56Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > So, no, it’s not a matter of proximity. It’s a matter of **ownership**. Whoever owns - “bears” but not literally - the Ring is most under its influence at any distance, as long as they directly or indirectly control the ring. They have custody. Exactly what I was going to say. There is not some mechanism by which someone within a certain physical distance is affected by the Ring. It’s a magical connection. Frodo possesses the Ring, so it affects him. The Fellowship is escorting the Ring, so it affects them. > [@Coriolanus](#): > > > Isildur put on the Ring, hoping to escape under the cover of invisibility. Fleeing to the Anduin, he cast off his armour and tried to swim to the other side of the river, but the Ring slipped (of its own volition) from his finger. > > that would seem to indicate Tolkien thought it sentient. My understanding is that the Ring has volition, but not cognition. Personally, I don’t consider that sapience. I also don’t think it has sentience, except for a connection to what its possessor is feeling. Isildur knew he took the Ring by violence and was fleeing violence; the Ring reacted with betrayal. It was not making plans or otherwise weighing options. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2024, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/51 "2024-07-21T14:28:04Z")
Yes, this. Ownership is a very important factor in the LOTR setting’s magic. As the secondary owner (Sauron of course would be the “true” owner unless and until the Bearer mastered the Ring) the Ringbearer will have a link to it that other people don’t, regardless of its distance. Also for further evidence note how Gollum _didn’t_ age and die (or lose his obsession with it) despite seldom wearing the Ring anymore, it clearly kept a powerful influence on him without constant contact. In fact all the Ringbearers continued to be affected by it until it was destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2024, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/52 "2024-07-21T15:10:24Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Ownership is a very important factor in the LOTR setting’s magic. Another example would be Aragorn using the Orthanc pilantir, wresting control away from Sauron because he had the “right” (ownership) to control the stone by heredity. > [@](#): > > ‘A struggle somewhat grimmer for my part than the battle of the Hornburg,’ answered Aragorn. ‘I have looked in the Stone of Orthanc, my friends.’ > > ‘You have looked in that accursed stone of wizardry!’ exclaimed Gimli with fear and astonishment in his face. ‘Did you say aught to - him? Even Gandalf feared that encounter.’ > > ‘You forget to whom you speak,’ said Aragorn sternly, and his eyes glinted. ‘What do you fear that I should say to him? Did I not openly proclaim my title before the doors of Edoras? Nay, Gimli,’ he said in a softer voice, and the grimness left his face, and he looked like one who has laboured in sleepless pain for many nights. ‘Nay, my friends, **I am the lawful master of the Stone, and I had both the right and the strength to use it** , or so I judged. The right cannot be doubted. The strength was enough – barely.’ ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2024, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/53 "2024-07-21T17:31:57Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Perhaps giving it away is easy if there’s no chance of the other person actually accepting it. Would Frodo know that? And can you imagine Gollum even lending the ring to someone – albeit after 500 years of being enthralled by it? ---
**Author:** ![colinfred](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colinfred/32/21338_2.png) [@colinfred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colinfred)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2024, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/54 "2024-07-21T17:39:59Z")
It’s been a long time since I read “The Hobbit”. Please remind me how Bilbo got the ring in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2024, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/55 "2024-07-21T17:47:17Z")
Bilbo encounters goblins while in their mountain lair. He gets into a fight with one and they fall into a chasm. As it happens this was near to where Gollum was living in his caves. They are both unconcious but Bilbo wakes first and sees Gollum come along and find the unconcious goblin. That is food for Gollum so Gollum starts dragging it back to his lair. The goblin begins to wake-up so Gollum starts hitting it with a rock. As he does so the Ring falls out of Gollum’s pocket (remember, the Ring can nudge things so it can be found by someone else…this was the first chance for the Ring in a very long time). Bilbo finds the Ring and picks it up. Gollum got it by killing his friend(?) or cousin(?) who found it in the river where the Ring slipped off of Isildur’s finger (the guy who chopped the finger off of Sauron which had the Ring on it). ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2024, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/56 "2024-07-21T17:49:36Z")
Bilbo finds it while fumbling around in the dark and puts it in his pocket without a thought. > Bilbo awakens in total darkness; it’s so dark he literally cannot tell the difference between having his eyes open or closed. He gropes around on all fours, and his hand accidentally brushes against a small ring of cold metal. He puts it in his pocket without thinking and continues on his way. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2024, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/57 "2024-07-21T18:01:48Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > My understanding is that the Ring has volition, but not cognition. Personally, I don’t consider that sapience. I also don’t think it has sentience In Deep Geek covered this two weeks ago. His take: Will, yes, and awareness of its surroundings. But not a character capable of independent thought. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/2ecwklJfy3o/maxresdefault.jpg "Is the One Ring Sentient?") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ecwklJfy3o) ---
**Author:** ![Coriolanus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coriolanus/32/18769_2.png) [@Coriolanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coriolanus)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2024, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/58 "2024-07-21T18:37:28Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > his hand accidentally brushes against a small ring of cold metal. He puts it in his pocket without thinking and continues on his way. Call it volition. cognition or sentience yet that Ring very much _wanted_ to be found. In The Hobbit itself, after the Beorn episode Gandalf doesn’t say he’s got to go off and dispatch whomever this Necromancer is, without sending any word ahead to Elven King / Thranduill to do him a a solid and perhaps help out some dwarves get through Mirkwood. It’s just a fun story and spiders amd vanishing Elven parties along with drunk Elves and escaping in barrels was pretty much all Tolkien had in mind at the time. The absolute travesty that the Necromancer was actually Sauron who fled to a rebuilt-from-the-ground Barad Dur doesn’t get mentioned in The Hobbit. Hey Elrond “the wise” after you told Isildur to toss the Ring into Orodruin, and he didn’t and it’s rather well known where and when he perished, did you ever think of looking for the Ring like Saruman and the Nazgul did 3000 years later? Or does Gandalf have to go off and find out Isildur’s written accounts of what he did in the couple of years he had it and kinda put that together with that really nice golden Ring Bilbo then Frodo possessed? ---
**Author:** ![Sylvanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@Sylvanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sylvanz)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2024, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/59 "2024-07-21T18:44:02Z")
I don’t think Gandalf’s plan A was to kill Frodo. It may have been plan Z. Gandalf was Good with a capital G. That would have been the wizard’s weakness the ring exploited. I think vanity and pride were Saruman’s. Gandalf would not kill Frodo unless nothing else could possibly save Middle Earth’s peoples. Even then the death, at his hands, of such innocence and nobility would have destroyed him. I’ve always thought Frodo “died” in a very significant way. The ring and the negative things that happened destroyed much of what made Frodo Frodo. Going to The Undying Lands, heaven? seemed to begin some sort of renewal. I think Bombadil was the soul/spirit incarnate of Middle Earth. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2024, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487/60 "2024-07-21T18:48:49Z")
> [@Sylvanz](#): > > I think Bombadil was the soul/spirit incarnate of Middle Earth. Like Mother Nature embodied? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-frodo-never-had-a-chance-to-destroy-the-one-ring-he-is-shown-from-the-very-start-he-cannot-do-it/1004487.md?page=4)