# LOTR: How powerful was Gandalf...and why didn't he flex? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [March 7, 2020, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-how-powerful-was-gandalf-and-why-didnt-he-flex/849048 "2020-03-07T07:51:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2020, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-how-powerful-was-gandalf-and-why-didnt-he-flex/849048/1 "2020-03-07T07:51:19Z")
I get that Gandalf was trying to hold back and let the peoples of Middle Earth sort out their own stuff. An enlightened position. As such we rarely see Gandalf strut his stuff and see him go full-on beast mode. The one time we see him do it is when he fights the Balrog…another Maiar. IIRC that Balrog was Durin’s Bain which single handedly whomped all of the Dwarves in Khazad-Dum. And we know that Gandalf, barely, killed that same Balrog. Yet the Gandalf we see in the books, apart from that one battle, seems…meh. I guess what I am asking is should we think Gandalf could have whomped everyone in Khazad-Dum if he felt like it? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2020, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-how-powerful-was-gandalf-and-why-didnt-he-flex/849048/2 "2020-03-07T13:43:41Z")
brief summary, not quite true but fits the facts: Gandalf was _limited_. He was not a maiar who decided to incarnate and live among us like Melian did. He was made mostly human, with much of his power and much of his knowledge and wisdom left behind. The Valar did this purposefully in order make sure that the Children of Iluvatar (elves and men) would have to solve their own problems, and not rely on the Divine folk to pull their chestnuts out of the fire. Gandalf and the other Istari such as Saruman, Rhadagast, Alatar, Pallando, (aka Morinehtar and Rómestámo) were sent to inspire, advise, encourage. The only time Gandalf could really cut loose was when divine forces were directly arrayed against elves and men, as he did when he went toe to toe with the Balrog. Only then could he access his greater powers, and even then, it destroyed his physical body. Gandalf was sent back a second time after that, and it appears in that case there was intervention from Iluvatar his own self, with upgraded abilities and permission to confront the enemy more directly, but even then his role was to get the Children off their butts to do the job. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2020, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-how-powerful-was-gandalf-and-why-didnt-he-flex/849048/3 "2020-03-07T14:48:21Z")
In other words, it wasn’t that he _couldn’t_ use his full powers, it was that he didn’t have permission to. As the White, he had a little more permission. But still not full. ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2020, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-how-powerful-was-gandalf-and-why-didnt-he-flex/849048/4 "2020-03-07T18:13:14Z")
There are two quotes, both from _Unfinished Tales_ I believe, that always help me thin about how the Istari operated. > [@](#): > > For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, **but clad in bodies of as of Men, real and not feigned** , but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years. And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men and Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt. > [@](#): > > For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had needs to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly. Thus by enduring of free will the pangs of exile and the deceits of Sauron they might redress the evils of that time. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2020, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-how-powerful-was-gandalf-and-why-didnt-he-flex/849048/5 "2020-03-07T19:07:05Z")
If Gandalf had used his full powers, the tale would have been too short. Indeed, the Trilogy might have been only a Duology. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2020, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-how-powerful-was-gandalf-and-why-didnt-he-flex/849048/6 "2020-03-07T19:17:54Z")
> [@Pork\_Rind](#): > > There are two quotes, both from _Unfinished Tales_ I believe, that always help me think about how the Istari operated. These quotes (thank you for them) remind me that Tolkien’s work was built from a foundation of Christian theology. I believe those who read Tolkien without an understanding of the Catholicism which deliberately permeates it don’t have access to his full intentions. Doesn’t mean that it isn’t enjoyable anyway though. ---
**Author:** ![Capn\_Carl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Capn\_Carl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capn_Carl)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2020, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-how-powerful-was-gandalf-and-why-didnt-he-flex/849048/7 "2020-03-07T20:18:47Z")
Even as The Grey, he showed vastly superhuman powers when needed: magical fireworks, deadly lightning bolts, an illuminating and incendiary staff, magical door locking, etc… He was able to defeat multiple Nazguls. In all the depicted combats, his only known injury was vs. the balrog. ---
**Author:** ![Capn\_Carl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Capn\_Carl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capn_Carl)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2020, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-how-powerful-was-gandalf-and-why-didnt-he-flex/849048/8 "2020-03-07T20:20:50Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > These quotes (thank you for them) remind me that Tolkien’s work was built from a foundation of Christian theology. I believe those who read Tolkien without an understanding of the Catholicism which deliberately permeates it don’t have access to his full intentions. > > Doesn’t mean that it isn’t enjoyable anyway though. I can see some of that, but not being Catholic, I’m ignorant. I’m interested, and would enjoy reading of an example. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2020, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-how-powerful-was-gandalf-and-why-didnt-he-flex/849048/9 "2020-03-08T02:34:51Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > The only time Gandalf could really cut loose was when divine forces were directly arrayed against elves and men, as he did when he went toe to toe with the Balrog. Only then could he access his greater powers, and even then, it destroyed his physical body. We missed a second cutting loose when Pippin interrupted Galdalf’s confrontation with the head Nazgul. OK, it’d first been interrupted by the Rohirrim, but Gandalf had been planning on continuing that battle. It’d have been interesting what would have happened if not for Pippin’s interruption. Well, for Chinese levels of interesting, that is. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2020, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-how-powerful-was-gandalf-and-why-didnt-he-flex/849048/10 "2020-03-08T03:54:57Z")
Another tidbit: When Gandalf says to the Balrog, “I am a servant of the Secret Fire”, he’s basically saying “I’m on a mission from God”. Except he really, truly, literally means it. The “Secret Fire” is the term used in Tolkien’s writings for the Holy Spirit. ---
**Author:** ![Capn\_Carl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Capn\_Carl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capn_Carl)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2020, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-how-powerful-was-gandalf-and-why-didnt-he-flex/849048/11 "2020-03-08T19:36:59Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > We missed a second cutting loose when Pippin interrupted Galdalf’s confrontation with the head Nazgul. OK, it’d first been interrupted by the Rohirrim, but Gandalf had been planning on continuing that battle. It’d have been interesting what would have happened if not for Pippin’s interruption. Well, for Chinese levels of interesting, that is. IMO, having underdogs Eowyn and Merry defeat the Witch King is more interesting than having Gandalf smoke him with a lightning bolt. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2020, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-how-powerful-was-gandalf-and-why-didnt-he-flex/849048/12 "2020-03-08T20:13:05Z")
I agree with the above (good research, people!) and would just like to add that Cirdan the Elf Shipwright gave Gandalf Narya (one of the Three Elf Rings of Power), which undoubtedly helped Gandalf inspire folk. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2020, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-how-powerful-was-gandalf-and-why-didnt-he-flex/849048/13 "2020-03-08T21:56:35Z")
More specifically, the Ring of Fire, with which he might rekindle hearts which had grown cold. Like Theoden. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2020, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-how-powerful-was-gandalf-and-why-didnt-he-flex/849048/14 "2020-03-09T13:12:13Z")
Gandalf would be a lot more powerful, but you try finding some peace and quiet to memorize Astral Projection or Storm of Vengeance when you’re traveling with a group of Hobbits or Dwarves. Between the complaining about food, the constant bickering, and trying to keep a Took from getting everyone killed, he’s lucky he could get an occasional Fireball in. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2020, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-how-powerful-was-gandalf-and-why-didnt-he-flex/849048/15 "2020-03-09T14:16:43Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Gandalf would be a lot more powerful, but you try finding some peace and quiet to memorize Astral Projection or Storm of Vengeance when you’re traveling with a group of Hobbits or Dwarves. Between the complaining about food, the constant bickering, and trying to keep a Took from getting everyone killed, he’s lucky he could get an occasional Fireball in. And keeping track of the Hall Pass. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2020, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-how-powerful-was-gandalf-and-why-didnt-he-flex/849048/16 "2020-03-09T14:31:01Z")
Wait, are you saying… **manhattan** was Gandalf!? That explains so much! ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2020, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-how-powerful-was-gandalf-and-why-didnt-he-flex/849048/17 "2020-03-09T15:54:28Z")
A _Maia_. The -_r_ is the plural ending. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2020, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-how-powerful-was-gandalf-and-why-didnt-he-flex/849048/18 "2020-03-09T15:58:42Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > More specifically, the Ring of Fire, with which he might rekindle hearts which had grown cold. Like Theoden. Was it a burning ring of fire? Did it go down, down, down - while the flames got higher? Did it burn, burn, burn? This ring of fire? ---
**Author:** ![BeagleJesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5daacb/32.png) [@BeagleJesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeagleJesus)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2020, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-how-powerful-was-gandalf-and-why-didnt-he-flex/849048/19 "2020-03-09T16:22:26Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Another tidbit: When Gandalf says to the Balrog, “I am a servant of the Secret Fire”, he’s basically saying “I’m on a mission from God”. Except he really, truly, literally means it. The “Secret Fire” is the term used in Tolkien’s writings for the Holy Spirit. Huh, this whole time I always thought he was talking about secretly having the fire ring. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2020, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-how-powerful-was-gandalf-and-why-didnt-he-flex/849048/20 "2020-03-09T17:15:02Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > brief summary, not quite true but fits the facts: > > Gandalf was _limited_. He was not a maiar who decided to incarnate and live among us like Melian did. He was made mostly human, with much of his power and much of his knowledge and wisdom left behind. The Valar did this purposefully in order make sure that the Children of Iluvatar (elves and men) would have to solve their own problems, and not rely on the Divine folk to pull their chestnuts out of the fire. Gandalf and the other Istari such as Saruman, Rhadagast, Alatar, Pallando, (aka Morinehtar and Rómestámo) were sent to inspire, advise, encourage. > > The only time Gandalf could really cut loose was when divine forces were directly arrayed against elves and men, as he did when he went toe to toe with the Balrog. Only then could he access his greater powers, and even then, it destroyed his physical body. > > Gandalf was sent back a second time after that, and it appears in that case there was intervention from Iluvatar his own self, with upgraded abilities and permission to confront the enemy more directly, but even then his role was to get the Children off their butts to do the job. I’m curious what parts you feel are “not quite true”? > [@Chronos](#): > > In other words, it wasn’t that he _couldn’t_ use his full powers, it was that he didn’t have permission to. As the White, he had a little more permission. But still not full. I’ve wondered if the mantle of “the White” inherently carries with it more permission/power or if Gandalf 2.0 was given that power specifically. We never really see Saruman whip out any major power for example. > [@Ulfreida](#): > > These quotes (thank you for them) remind me that Tolkien’s work was built from a foundation of Christian theology. I believe those who read Tolkien without an understanding of the Catholicism which deliberately permeates it don’t have access to his full intentions. > > Doesn’t mean that it isn’t enjoyable anyway though. Not exactly. Tolkien was quite religious but he also was pretty explicit that his stories were not intentional allegories. He pretty sharply criticized CS Lewis for his overt retellings in his works. Tolkien has basically said that it’s impossible to avoid one’s religious beliefs permeating their work but that telling religious stories should be left to the professionals (clergy and/or prophets depending on your interpretation of that statement.) I think Tolkien would probably say that his characters certainly have religion and that their religion was colored by his own beliefs, but the reader should treat it as a nothing more than fiction. It’s not saying anything about real religious mythology and should not be interpreted that way. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-how-powerful-was-gandalf-and-why-didnt-he-flex/849048.md?page=2)