# LOTR: "In Moira, in Khazad-dum" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 23, 2004, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640 "2004-09-23T06:43:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/1 "2004-09-23T06:43:18Z")
Three questions: 1. In what language is “Moira”? One of the Elvish tongues? 2. What does “Moira” mean? 3. “Khazad-dum” is Dwarvish, I assume, since in other places “Khazad” is identified as the Dwarves own term for themselves. But what does the phrase “Khazad-dum” mean? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/2 "2004-09-23T06:53:12Z")
It’s “Moria,” and I believe it’s Elvish. Can’t help with the Dwarvish. ---
**Author:** ![Telperien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/65b543/32.png) [@Telperien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telperien)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/3 "2004-09-23T06:53:18Z")
1. It’s in an Elvish tongue, though I’m not sure which one right now. Can’t find LOTR, just _The Silmarillion_, and it doesn’t seem to be in there. 2. “The black chasm.” 3. It basically means “the excavations, halls, or mansions of the Dwarves.” ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/4 "2004-09-23T06:55:59Z")
Moria is the Elf name for Khazad-Dum. “Mor” is “black”, so it’s “Black” something. Dwelling or hole, probably. “Khazad” is Dwarvish for, well, Dwarf. “Khazad-Dum” is translated as Dwarrowdelf, Dwarrow meaning Dwarf and delf coming from delve, so, dwarf-delving, dwarf-cave. There are Dopers who can give you a FAR more detailed explanation of both terms. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/5 "2004-09-23T06:56:57Z")
> [@Northern Piper](#): > > Three questions: > > 1. In what language is “Moira”? One of the Elvish tongues? > > 2. What does “Moira” mean? > > 3. “Khazad-dum” is Dwarvish, I assume, since in other places “Khazad” is identified as the Dwarves own term for themselves. But what does the phrase “Khazad-dum” mean? > > Thanks. First of all, it’s “Moria”. Second of all, the Quenya root _Mor_ means “dark”, as in “Morgoth.” It’s not hard to infer the meaning of “Moria.” Third, Khazad does indeed mean “dwarf”; however, only dwarves and wizards speak Dwarvish, so the full meaning is lost to us. (In other words - Tolkien never provided an English-Dwarvish dictionary) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/6 "2004-09-23T19:33:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Third, Khazad does indeed mean “dwarf”; however, only dwarves and wizards speak Dwarvish, so the full meaning is lost to us. You’re probably right that wizards know Dwarvish, but Gandalf has enough tact to not say so outright. Dwarves are very sensitive about their language. The longest piece of Dwarvish known to any non-dwarf (except probably Gandalf and possibly other Wizards) is the warcry “Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai-menu!”, translated as “Axes of the Dwarves! The Dwarves are upon you!”. Which is already enough to invite some grammatical speculation, incidentally: In that phrase we see the word for “dwarves” used in both a nominative and a genitive sense, without prepositions or a change in word form. How, then, do dwarves indicate noun case? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/7 "2004-09-23T19:48:37Z")
From the [Tolkien Sarcasm page:](http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/theories/cannibal.htm) > [@](#): > > 1. When the Dwarves of beautiful Khazad-Dum built their Western door, why did they allow it to be inscribed with the insulting name of “Moria” (“Black Pit”), a name that would only be earned long years afterwards? > > They could not understand what Narvi was writing on the door. (After all, Dwarves used Cirth). So it was a practical joke by the Elves. > Which leads me to think that the scene before the Gate of Moria should have gone more like this: > > “They say only: The Doors of Durin, Lord of Moria. Speak, friend, and enter. And underneath small and faint is written: I, Narvi, made them. Celebrimbor of Hollin drew these signs. And under that, in little tiny letters, I can just make out: Dwarves are little stunty bowlegged cretins and their women are ugly. And with their poor eyesight and their native stupidity they’ll never even be able to read this. Bwah hah hah hah.” > > Gimli pulled out his axe and began hacking Legolas to pieces. “Ai! Ai!” the Elf cried, but the Dwarf laughed long and heartily. “Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai-menu!” he laughed, and then began singing a cheerful Dwarven battle-song as he hacked the defenseless, once-fair Elf into many pieces. > > “What does it mean by speak, friend, and enter?” asked Merry, as he loaned Gimli a cooking-pot… Stupid elves. ---
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/8 "2004-09-23T19:55:19Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > You’re probably right that wizards know Dwarvish, but Gandalf has enough tact to not say so outright. Dwarves are very sensitive about their language. The longest piece of Dwarvish known to any non-dwarf (except probably Gandalf and possibly other Wizards) is the warcry “Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai-menu!”, translated as “Axes of the Dwarves! The Dwarves are upon you!”. Which is already enough to invite some grammatical speculation, incidentally: In that phrase we see the word for “dwarves” used in both a nominative and a genitive sense, without prepositions or a change in word form. How, then, do dwarves indicate noun case? Why hasn’t anyone brought this up over a beer? My WAG is that the dwarves, due to their cultural tradition of pride and self-reliance, have chosen that their word for their race is immutable — simply _khazad_ in every instance. Other nouns of lesser import decline following standard (but unknown to us) patterns. _Baruk_ (“axes of”) could be the Dwarvish variant of the genitive, from the hypothetical root of _bar_, “axe”. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/9 "2004-09-23T20:02:26Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > You’re probably right that wizards know Dwarvish, but Gandalf has enough tact to not say so outright. Dwarves are very sensitive about their language. The longest piece of Dwarvish known to any non-dwarf (except probably Gandalf and possibly other Wizards) is the warcry “Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai-menu!”, translated as “Axes of the Dwarves! The Dwarves are upon you!”. Which is already enough to invite some grammatical speculation, incidentally: In that phrase we see the word for “dwarves” used in both a nominative and a genitive sense, without prepositions or a change in word form. How, then, do dwarves indicate noun case? Since AFAIK (and no doubt **Qadgop** will be along with a corrective) Tolkien did not publish anything on the grammatical structure of Khuzdul, we can only speculate. So here are my mutually exclusive speculations: 1. Khuzdul is positional – having the noun Khazad follow the noun Baruk makes it a modifier, and therefore possessive, of Baruk. 2. As some non-IE languages do, the possession is specified not by placing an ending on the possessor but by placing it on the possessed. (Any jokes about exorcisms in this regard will be haughtily ignored! ;)) In other words, -uk is an ending which signifies both (1) axes is plural, and (2) axes are possessed by the following noun, i.e., Dwarves. 3. Khazad is both nominative plural and genitive plural. 4. It’s a Dwarvish joke – the phrase does not mean what the alleged translation claims. Gandalf & Co. go along with the joke. 5. The endings or other modifiers in the two uses of Khazad are sounded differently, as in the distinction Finnish makes in /a/ and /aa/ – length of vowel (in the literal sense, not the metaphorical use for different sounds of ‘long’ and ‘short’ vowel) carries a different grammatical meaning. Similarly, Khaz-AD may mean “of the dwarves” while “KHAZ-ad” means “dwarves” in the nominative. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/10 "2004-09-24T01:12:23Z")
Ta-Dah! [Khuzdul](http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/khuzdul.htm). The secret tongue of the dwarves. Once you comb thru _all_ of JRRT’s writings, a bit larger vocabulary is assembled. The site is a nice summary of all of what JRRT wrote about dwarvish, along with some of the implications of what he wrote. Basically the languaged was designed _for_ the dwarves, not by them! Aulë their creator made it, and the dwarves were not willing to alter it. In contrast, **iglishmêk** , their gesture language, was changeable. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/11 "2004-09-24T01:45:56Z")
Well, I was close! ::: walks away muttering about “construct states” and the vagaries of philologists ::: 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Aankh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@Aankh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aankh)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/12 "2004-09-24T12:41:03Z")
In the appendices of the _Return of the King_, there seem to be various suggestions that Aragorn’s death is a suicide: > [@](#): > > Arwen knew well what he intended, and long had foreseen it; nonetheless she was overborne by her grief. > [@](#): > > And for all her wisdom and lineage she could not forbear to plead with him to stay awhile. > [@](#): > > “…and to me has been given not only a span thrice that of Men of Middle-earth, but also the grace to go at my own will, and give back my gift.” Am I reading this (especially the last quote from Aragorn) completely wrong? Could someone explain to me the nature of the Numenorian gift? Also, later it says > [@](#): > > There at last when the mallorn-leaves were falling, but spring had not yet come, she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed… So does Arwen commit suicide too? Because she seems to linger in Lorien for less than a year after leaving Minas Tirith before laying herself down to rest. Then, Aragorn on his deathbed mentions something about Arwen repenting and going to the Havens bearing with her the memories of their days together. I thought this was impossible? She does reply that the choice “is long over”, there being “no ship” that could take her to the West. But does Aragorn’s statement mean that had there been a ship left, she could have had her cake and eaten it too? It rather takes away from the epic nature of their love, if so! Related to this, did Tinuviel join Beren in the Halls of Mandos and pass into the unknown, or did she do what Aragorn suggested? ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/13 "2004-09-24T12:59:13Z")
Aragorn, and others of the pure Numenorian line, were able to release their spirit from the body before old age or sickness forced them too. This was considered a great gift by the Elves and Valar, who viewed human mortality as a chance to leave the bonds of the world they were tied to for all eternity. It was only with the corruption of Numenor that the humans of the land began to drag out their lives through senility and sickness, seeking their immortality. Arwen, like Luthien, loved a mortal deeply and completely. One way for an elf to die is wasting away from grief. Arwen knew, long before Aragorn’s death, that if she lost him there would be nothing left in the world for her. There would be nothing to live for anymore. On the flipside, another alternative is that she herself took the path of Luthien and became mortal as well. I’m not sure this was ever made clear. Luthien herself was bound to Beren, living out their days together and dying together. I personally think the first theory more likely than the second. If it is, then yes Arwen could have theoretically been borne across the sea to Valinor since she was a pure elf. She also resides in the Halls of Mandos. Luthien Tinuviel, as I mentioned above, became fully mortal when given a choice by Mandos. She sacrificed Valinor and the blessings of the Eldar to be with Beren. Part of the reason why her kin viewed it as such a tragedy was because they would never see her again. Luthien left the shores of Mandos, never to be seen again until the breaking of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Aankh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@Aankh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aankh)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/14 "2004-09-24T13:08:47Z")
> [@Priam](#): > > I personally think the first theory more likely than the second. If it is, then yes Arwen could have theoretically been borne across the sea to Valinor since she was a pure elf. She also resides in the Halls of Mandos. But weren’t the Halls of Mandos a sort of ethereal sorting house? Men sent off into the unknown and Elves sent back to join their kith and kin in the Undying Lands? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/15 "2004-09-24T15:10:00Z")
> [@Priam](#): > > On the flipside, another alternative is that she herself took the path of Luthien and became mortal as well. I’m not sure this was ever made clear. Luthien herself was bound to Beren, living out their days together and dying together. Arwen became mortal. This was noted in ROTK, where Elrond grieved at their parting, which would last “beyond the end of the world” or some such. > [@](#): > > I personally think the first theory more likely than the second. If it is, then yes Arwen could have theoretically been borne across the sea to Valinor since she was a pure elf. She also resides in the Halls of Mandos. Arwen was not pure elf. She was also descended from Beren, and Tuor. And Melian. I expect since she expired as a mortal, she left Mandos long ago. Elves hung out in Mandos until they got issued new bodies (some have to wait a loooooong time, like Feanor). Mortals pop in briefly at Mandos, then head out for parts unknown. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/16 "2004-09-24T15:16:09Z")
Someone who actually has the text will no doubt correct me, but I thought the whole point of Arwen’s choice is that she becomes mortal, that she takes the unknown journey out of the world, so that she can stay with Aragorn. Doesn’t Aragorn say something to that effect as he dies – about we’ll meet again, though nobody knows what the unknown place will be like? ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/17 "2004-09-24T17:11:04Z")
Re Aragorn/Arwen questions - Quercus & others are right. Arwen does choose to become mortal & die in hopes of following Aragorn in whatever afterlife mortals have. (which is unknown even to the elves). No, she couldn’t go back on her earlier choice. And the fact that she had a bit of mortal blood in her was unimportant - if she hadn’t made this choice she would have been immortal along with the other elves. As to whether Aragorn commits suicide, it’s phrased as him having the choice of when to end his abnormally long life. Again like Quercus, I don’t have the Appendix to ROTK right in front of me, but believe me I’ve read it enough to know these things for sure. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/18 "2004-09-24T17:50:46Z")
> [@](#): > > Related to this, did Tinuviel join Beren in the Halls of Mandos and pass into the unknown, or did she do what Aragorn suggested? Yes; its also implied that one human man was allowed to remain in Valinor after he died (what was his name again?); he fathered the other line of half-human/half-elves in Middle Earth. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/19 "2004-09-24T18:06:29Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > Yes; its also implied that one human man was allowed to remain in Valinor after he died (what was his name again?); he fathered the other line of half-human/half-elves in Middle Earth. Tuor, father of Earendil. And it’s not merely implied but overtly stated. BTW, Elros Tar-Minyatur, Elrond, and Elrond’s kids, having both Elvish and Mannish blood, are given the choice of which kindred they will affiliate with, and therefore become subject to the doom of. Elros chooses to be a Man, and dies after 500 years of life; his descendants are given long life and the ability to lay down their lives as noted above; this is why Aragorn is able to do so, being a “throwback” to the great kings of Numenor before the corruption. Elrond chooses Elfhood. His kids postpone their choice – as we leave Middle-Earth after LOTR and the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, Elrohir and Elladan have not yet made their choice. Arwen chooses to become human, for love of Aragorn, as Luthien before her had done for love of Beren. _La plus ce change, la plus c’est le meme chose._ ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/20 "2004-09-24T18:26:59Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Tuor, father of Earendil. And it’s not merely implied but overtly stated. I hate to contradict you, **Poly** , but it is only overtly stated as a legend of the Eldar. The last we actually see of Tuor and Idril is them sailing off. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640.md?page=2)