# LOTR: "In Moira, in Khazad-dum" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 23, 2004, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640 "2004-09-23T06:43:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/21 "2004-09-24T18:53:34Z")
Actually the _legend_ says that Tuor was judged to be of the Eldar, despite his mortal parentage, so he would probably not have died over there. But as **jayjay** points out, it was a tradition passed on down among the Eldar, rather than stated as canon by JRRT. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/22 "2004-09-24T20:25:56Z")
> [@](#): > > Arwen became mortal. This was noted in ROTK, where Elrond grieved at their parting, which would last “beyond the end of the world” or some such. Again, I’m going to point out the non-omniscience of the characters. Yes, it’s true that _so far as Arwen and Elrond know_, she became truly mortal, and shared in the Mannish fate (whatever that might be) after her death. But while they are both very wise, they are neither of them omniscient, which leaves open the possibility that they were incorrect. On the other hand, Elros’ children apparently did _not_ have this choice (else much of the later unpleasentness in Numenor could have been averted), and nor do we ever see Elladan nor Elrohir actively making this choice. Furthermore, Arwen’s death is by grief, which is not a mode of death ordinarily available to mortals, but which is one available to Elves. I’m therefore of the suspicion that Arwen did not, in fact, follow the mortal path, but remained of the Eldar, and is therefore unto the end of Time forever sundered from her love. About Luthien, however, there is no doubt. We have it as canon that she so moved Mandos (the more impressive a feat, seeing as she’s apparently the only person, mortal, Eldar, Ainur, or fey, to _ever_ move Mandos) with her song of grief and longing, that in her case alone, despite her Eldar and Ainur blood, an exception was made and she was allowed to follow the path of her love. ---
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/23 "2004-09-24T22:10:38Z")
> [@aankh](#): > > But weren’t the Halls of Mandos a sort of ethereal sorting house? Men sent off into the unknown and Elves sent back to join their kith and kin in the Undying Lands? Exactly. In fact, that’s what earned Mandos the nickname “Hands of Fate”. 😃 I am _so_ not going to the undying lands for that one. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/24 "2004-09-24T22:35:14Z")
> [@Ponder Stibbons](#): > > Exactly. In fact, that’s what earned Mandos the nickname “Hands of Fate”. 😃 > > I am _so_ not going to the undying lands for that one. Damn straight! Thrust thru the Door of Night is more like it! And **Chronos**? Sorry, but JRRT disagrees with you, in more than one place. > [@](#): > > "The Half-elven, such as Elrond and Arwen, can choose to which kind and fate they shall belong: choose once and for all (Letters, Letter No. 154)." > [@](#): > > “To him therefore was granted the same grace as to those of the High Elves that still lingered in Middle-earth: that when weary at last of the mortal lands they could take ship from the Grey Havens and pass into the Uttermost West; and this grace continued after the change of the world. But **to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained, to become mortal and die in Middle-earth** (Appendix A, Lord of the Rings).” > [@](#): > > “Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights (Letters, Letter No. 345).” The characters may not be omniscient, but for the purpose of his subcreation, I would give JRRT’s statements the greatest weight of all. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/25 "2004-09-24T22:37:29Z")
> [@](#): > > " But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained, to become mortal and die in Middle-earth (Appendix A, Lord of the Rings)." BTW, this quote sort of indicates that Elladan and Elrohir became mortal too, since they didn’t leave with Pops. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/26 "2004-09-24T22:42:54Z")
Interestingly, in looking over “Letters”, I find this about **Tuor**. > [@](#): > > “Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Lúthien (and Túor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God. The entering into Men of the Elven-strain is indeed represented as part of a Divine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race, from the beginning destined to replace the Elves (Letter No. 153).” This seems to imply that JRRT considered Tuor’s being granted status as one of the Eldar _was_ canon. And an act of Eru at that! Wonder how I missed that one before? :smack: Some expert I am! ---
**Author:** ![Lilacs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Lilacs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilacs)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2004, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/27 "2004-09-25T00:09:03Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > Interestingly, in looking over “Letters”, I find this about **Tuor**. > > This seems to imply that JRRT considered Tuor’s being granted status as one of the Eldar _was_ canon. And an act of Eru at that! > > Wonder how I missed that one before? :smack: > > Some expert I am! I’ve actually been wondering about this. Could it be that because of Luthien’s choice, it made it possible for Tuor to take her place? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2004, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/28 "2004-09-25T00:26:00Z")
> [@Lilacs](#): > > I’ve actually been wondering about this. Could it be that because of Luthien’s choice, it made it possible for Tuor to take her place? You mean that because one of the Eldar opted out of their place within fate, a mortal could be taken out from their spot outside of fate? Not sure I’d buy that. It would seem to me that if such were the case, Tuor would have to fufill Luthien’s fate as an immortal. Besides, it all seems to come down to Eru’s option anyway, and I don’t think He’s the type to insist on a “one for one” symmetry. IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![GingerOfTheNorth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/cdc98d/32.png) [@GingerOfTheNorth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GingerOfTheNorth)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2004, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/29 "2004-09-25T03:02:16Z")
Nothing to add, other than my usual “I love you guys” which I am compelled to enter into every such JRRT thread. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2004, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/30 "2004-09-25T03:03:26Z")
> [@GingerOfTheNorth](#): > > Nothing to add, other than my usual “I love you guys” which I am compelled to enter into every such JRRT thread. Thank you. Geeks, madam. At your service. _bows_ ---
**Author:** ![dogbutler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dogbutler/32/428_2.png) [@dogbutler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dogbutler)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2004, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/31 "2004-09-25T04:24:51Z")
> [@aankh](#): > > But weren’t the Halls of Mandos a sort of ethereal sorting house? Men sent off into the unknown and Elves sent back to join their kith and kin in the Undying Lands? Mandos sort rubbish, Ar-Pharazon go in bin. ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2004, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/32 "2004-09-25T13:42:37Z")
I’m not sure about the Halls of Mandos, JRRT seemed to have some unclear conceptions about what form they would take. At some points he seems to view them as a purgatory of a sorts, where elves (and maybe dwarrow) rest until the end of days. Yes, it is in Valinor so perhaps kin are allowed to visit their loved ones. On the other side, it sometimes seems to be the clearinghouse mentioned, where elves are ressurected or maybe reincarnated. I don’t have any of the letters he wrote, just the Silmarillion and LoTR to go by. Given evidence before me, I’m willing to concede the point on Arwen. It does seem rather contradictory, however, that the children of Elrond continued to have a choice but not the children of Elros. I guess that can be waved away with the usual explanation: Eru did it. ---
**Author:** ![Lilacs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Lilacs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilacs)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2004, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/33 "2004-09-25T17:19:42Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > You mean that because one of the Eldar opted out of their place within fate, a mortal could be taken out from their spot outside of fate? > > Not sure I’d buy that. It would seem to me that if such were the case, Tuor would have to fufill Luthien’s fate as an immortal. > > Besides, it all seems to come down to Eru’s option anyway, and I don’t think He’s the type to insist on a “one for one” symmetry. > > IMHO. I see your point, it’s just that it seems like it was such a hard and fast rule…I mean, Eru wouldn’t bend even for Beren, who really kind of deserved it for all the trouble he went through. Course, it’s probably just my love of that particular story that makes me think that. Tuor on the other hand, kind of only did what Ulmo wanted and the rest played out because of that. I suppose who I think is more “deserving” has no effect on Eru. Or Tolkien for that matter. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2004, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/34 "2004-09-25T17:25:46Z")
Well, **Priam**. JRRT did sorta keep changing his mind as he went along. Remember he started putting this stuff together circa 1917 and was still tinkering with it at his death in 1973. Volumes 1-12 of HOMES, along with “Letters” contains lots of data about how his worldview vis a vis Mandos, Elf immortality and mortal mortality (redundant?) evolved. At one point the elves were supposed to be reborn as infants. But this was eventually discarded as not nice to the elf parents who thought they had a nice kid of their own, only to have it turn into someone like great grandpa Finwë. Not to mention having Avari and others reborn back in Middle-Earth and elsewhere, and remembering their time in the Halls of Mandos back in the Blessed Realm. So towards the end, JRRT altered the concept towards discorporated Eldar (eventually) being issued new bodies and coming forth to live in Valinor. Likewise, his concept of men and death changed. From the dead being judged in Mandos, to just hanging out there for a bit, to skipping Mandos all together, back to just hanging out there for a bit, but maybe for purposes unknown to all save Eru and Mandos (and sometimes Manwë). What’s a Tolkien fanatic to do? Basically read all his damn writing on Arda over a few dozen times, and try to figure out the gist of what he meant. Then having long pointless arguments about the nuances of it all on message boards. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2004, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/35 "2004-09-25T17:27:32Z")
> [@Lilacs](#): > > I see your point, it’s just that it seems like it was such a hard and fast rule…I mean, Eru wouldn’t bend even for Beren, who really kind of deserved it for all the trouble he went through. Course, it’s probably just my love of that particular story that makes me think that. > > Tuor on the other hand, kind of only did what Ulmo wanted and the rest played out because of that. > > I suppose who I think is more “deserving” has no effect on Eru. Or Tolkien for that matter. 😉 I think the difference was in the way they lived and the reverence with which they held the Eldar culture. Tuor was described as about as close to being Eldar as a mortal was capable. He adopted Elven ways and lived his life as nobly as the Eldar did. His love for Idril certainly inspired him in this, but it wasn’t the whole of it. Beren, on the other hand, was Adan all the way through. His only real connection to Elven culture came through his love for Luthien. He was noble, but it was a completely human nobility. I can’t really explain it clearly, because it’s not a verbal concept in my mind. I just know that, when reading their respective tales, Tuor’s character FEELS more Eldar than Adan, and Beren’s feels more Adan than Eldar. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2004, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/36 "2004-09-25T17:29:31Z")
> [@Lilacs](#): > > I see your point, it’s just that it seems like it was such a hard and fast rule…I mean, Eru wouldn’t bend even for Beren, who really kind of deserved it for all the trouble he went through. Course, it’s probably just my love of that particular story that makes me think that. > > Tuor on the other hand, kind of only did what Ulmo wanted and the rest played out because of that. > > I suppose who I think is more “deserving” has no effect on Eru. Or Tolkien for that matter. 😉 Well, Beren didn’t seem to want to be one of the Eldar. He was a man, raised among men, fighting and dying alongside men, whose only exposures to the elves were in the form of Luthien (only half elvish) and Luthien’s dad, who was the Father-in-Law from Hell. Meanwhile, Tuor never knew anyone but the elves, until he was taken into captivity by the cruel servants of Morgoth and enslaved. When he escaped, it was elves that helped him. He moved into an elf city, became the favorite of the elf king, and married the elf king’s daughter. To him, it probably seemed quite cruel to NOT be one of the Eldar. Anyway, who is to say which kindred is superior? Would one want to be elvish more than mortal? Remember, even the elves would come to envy the gift of Iluvatar to Men as time wore on. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2004, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/37 "2004-09-25T17:32:49Z")
**jayjay** , your opinions on Tolkien smack of genius! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Lilacs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Lilacs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilacs)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2004, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/38 "2004-09-25T17:36:47Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > Well, Beren didn’t seem to want to be one of the Eldar. He was a man, raised among men, fighting and dying alongside men, whose only exposures to the elves were in the form of Luthien (only half elvish) and Luthien’s dad, who was the Father-in-Law from Hell. > > Meanwhile, Tuor never knew anyone but the elves, until he was taken into captivity by the cruel servants of Morgoth and enslaved. When he escaped, it was elves that helped him. He moved into an elf city, became the favorite of the elf king, and married the elf king’s daughter. To him, it probably seemed quite cruel to NOT be one of the Eldar. > > Anyway, who is to say which kindred is superior? Would one want to be elvish more than mortal? Remember, even the elves would come to envy the gift of Iluvatar to Men as time wore on. I’m just a skeptic about what happens to mortals when they die. Yeah, sure, Tolkien hints they return to Eru. Although, it doesn’t seem like much goes on in Valinor. Seems like it’d get kind of boring after a few thousand years. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2004, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/39 "2004-09-25T17:44:32Z")
> [@Lilacs](#): > > I’m just a skeptic about what happens to mortals when they die. Yeah, sure, Tolkien hints they return to Eru. > > Although, it doesn’t seem like much goes on in Valinor. Seems like it’d get kind of boring after a few thousand years. Tolkien does explicitly say that men have the ability to shape their lives outside of the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all others. Sounds like a groovy thing. He also implies that this shaping may continue outside of Ea itself. Sort of giving them potential mini-god status. Whereas the lives of the Eldar are defined by the life of Ea itself, ending when it does. Valinor might be sorta dull, but in a blissed out way. ---
**Author:** ![Lilacs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Lilacs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilacs)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2004, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640/40 "2004-09-25T17:51:25Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > Tolkien does explicitly say that men have the ability to shape their lives outside of the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all others. Sounds like a groovy thing. He also implies that this shaping may continue outside of Ea itself. Sort of giving them potential mini-god status. Whereas the lives of the Eldar are defined by the life of Ea itself, ending when it does. > > Valinor might be sorta dull, but in a blissed out way. I really need to finish reading _ **HOMES** _, I guess. You rock, **Qadgop**. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-in-moira-in-khazad-dum/265640.md?page=3)