# LOTR Inconsistencies? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 20, 2002, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-inconsistencies/143974 "2002-12-20T04:14:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-inconsistencies/143974/21 "2002-12-20T19:18:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Just Some Guy \* > \*\*The real answer for why invisibility is because the One works kind of like the Nine, drawing the wearer into a more spiritual realm where they vanish but are still tangible much like the Nazgul. \*\* I hope you’re not claiming that the nine actually still wear their rings? Sauron claimed them long ago, and holds them still. Though where he kept them while disembodied was never quite clear to me. Do disembodied Maiar have pockets(es)? ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Just\_Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-inconsistencies/143974/22 "2002-12-20T19:23:21Z")
No, no, as in my original post the Nine clearly eventually become perminant (at the point where one becomes a Ringwraith). What I’m not clear on is why he doesn’t keep handing them out. Even if Denethor or Theoden wouldn’t accept it hand it out to one of your subordinates and keep pumping out Nazgul. Perhaps it takes seventy or eighty years to work… ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-inconsistencies/143974/23 "2002-12-20T19:35:21Z")
Frodo was invisible (at least to Sam) when Gollum attacked him. > [@](#): > > “I have come,” he said. “But I do not choose now to do what I came to do. I will not do this deed. The Ring is mine!” And suddenly, as he set it on his finger, he vanished from Sam’s sight… Something [Gollum] struck Sam violently in the back … and he was flung aside… then he saw a strange and terrible thing. Gollum on the edge of the abyss was fighting like a mad thing with an unseen foe." It may be that Gollum, through long years of wearing the ring himself, was able to see Frodo even when he was wearing it. At any rate, Gollum may have been watching when Frodo slipped on the ring, so he could have had a good idea of where he was standing anyway. Or it may be that he was able to use his other senses to find him. He did live under the Misty Mountains and seems to have been able to get around pretty well without light both there and in Moria. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-inconsistencies/143974/24 "2002-12-20T19:38:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Just Some Guy \* > \*\*No, no, as in my original post the Nine clearly eventually become perminant (at the point where one becomes a Ringwraith). > > What I’m not clear on is why he doesn’t keep handing them out. Even if Denethor or Theoden wouldn’t accept it hand it out to one of your subordinates and keep pumping out Nazgul. Perhaps it takes seventy or eighty years to work… \*\* My god, man, he could have thousands of them by now. Can you imagine the time sheets? Keeping track of nine is obviously enough of a chore for him. He can’t even find one little ring that is _calling out to him._ ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-inconsistencies/143974/25 "2002-12-20T19:49:44Z")
Yeah, let’s face it. Sauron’s not much of an administrator. Maybe he needs a consultant. ---
**Author:** ![Chava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@Chava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chava)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-inconsistencies/143974/26 "2002-12-20T20:30:58Z")
Along the lines of **ratty** ’s post: Tolkien _changed the story_ of how Bilbo got the Ring in _The Hobbit_. The text was actually changed in editions published after he realized what was needed for consistency with _The Lord of the Rings_. There is an explanation for the change (fobbed off as Bilbo’s having lied about it) in a forward to _The Fellowship of the Rings_. I’ve never seen the original version of Bilbo’s story, and early editions of _The Hobbit_ are probably hard to come by, but it appears that, rather than finding the Ring in the cave, Bilbo actually won it from Gollum in the riddle game in the original tale. ---
**Author:** ![Ol\_Gaffer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Ol\_Gaffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ol_Gaffer)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-inconsistencies/143974/27 "2002-12-20T21:16:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chava \* > \*\*Along the lines of **ratty** ’s post: > > Tolkien _changed the story_ of how Bilbo got the Ring in _The Hobbit_. The text was actually changed in editions published after he realized what was needed for consistency with _The Lord of the Rings_. There is an explanation for the change (fobbed off as Bilbo’s having lied about it) in a forward to _The Fellowship of the Rings_. I’ve never seen the original version of Bilbo’s story, and early editions of _The Hobbit_ are probably hard to come by, but it appears that, rather than finding the Ring in the cave, Bilbo actually won it from Gollum in the riddle game in the original tale. \*\* The story (as it occurs in the earliest printings of the 1st edition) is recounted in Doug Anderson’s _The Annotated Hobbit_ if you are interested in reading it. There is a new revised edition of the aforementioned work so it should be accessible at your local bookstore. As far as invisibility and the ring goes, I really like **Narile’s** explanation that the ring puts the wearer into the world of shadow, thus being able to see the Nazgul, exposed to Sauron, etc. Remember, the ring does not make one “completely” inivisible. I believe it is in mentioned in _The Hobbit_, right after Bilbo jumps over Gollum to escape from the Misty Mountains, that in full sunlight the ring-wearer casts a slight shadow. I suppose if one were looking for evidence to support the magical properties of a fictional ring, this could be taken to suggest that when the ring is worn, the wearer enters the world of shadow but not completely. ---
**Author:** ![NutWrench](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nutwrench/32/20193_2.png) [@NutWrench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NutWrench)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-inconsistencies/143974/28 "2002-12-21T00:54:16Z")
Here’s the quote from the book _The Fellowship of the Ring_ [Frodo] “I would ask one thing before we go,” said Frodo, "a thing which I often meant to ask Gandalf in Rivendell. I am permitted to wear the One Ring: why cannot I see all the others and know the thoughts of those that wear them? ’ [Galadriel] “You have not tried,” she said. "Only thrice have you set the Ring upon your finger since you knew what you possessed. Do not try! It would destroy you. Did not Gandalf tell you that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor? Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others. Yet even so, as Ring-bearer and as one that has borne it on finger and seen that which is hidden, your sight is grown keener. You have perceived my thought more clearly than many that are accounted wise. You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine . . . " [/quote] ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-inconsistencies/143974/29 "2002-12-21T01:10:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NutWrench \* > \*\*You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine . . . " \*\* Well, since this is a thread about inconsistencies, wouldn’t that be one? All of the seven aren’t accounted for, are they? And certainly Sauron doesn’t hold them. ---
**Author:** ![I\_am\_Sparticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c68b51/32.png) [@I\_am\_Sparticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_am_Sparticus)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-inconsistencies/143974/30 "2002-12-21T01:28:16Z")
Sauron made a ring of power, and was powerful enough to access all of its powers. It was forged of his malice and will to dominate others, and it lends that kind of power to its wearer. Hobbits don’t try to do those things, although Lotho was starting to try. It simply never occurred to them. It may have made Sauron invisible, but I suspect that Sauron knew how to control the power of the ring as he desired. ---
**Author:** ![Dumbguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dumbguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dumbguy)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-inconsistencies/143974/31 "2002-12-21T02:18:37Z")
Why couldn’t the Nazgul see Frodo when he had the ring on? They were always drawn to him when he wore it except when he put it on right in front of them. Then they just sort of stabbed around blindly until they happened to poke him. If the ring brought him into the realm of shadows where they lived, wouldn’t it be like a big neon ‘kick me’ sign to them? ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-inconsistencies/143974/32 "2002-12-21T03:38:14Z")
Here are excerpts from Tolkien’s letter 246 which speaks to the OP. (The whole thing is at [http://www.americanidea.org/handouts/06240110.htm.)](http://www.americanidea.org/handouts/06240110.htm.)) > [@](#): > > Frodo had become a considerable person, but of a special kind: in spiritual enlargement rather than in increase of physical or mental power; his will was much stronger than it had been, but so far it had been exercised in resisting not using the Ring and with the object of destroying it. He needed time, much time, before he could control the Ring or, (which in such a case is the same) before it could control him; before his will and arrogance could grow to a stature in which he could dominate other major hostile wills. … > > The situation as between Frodo, with the Ring and the Eight might be compared to that of a small brave man armed with a devastating weapon, faced by eight savage warriors of great strength and agility armed with poisoned blades. The man’s weakness was that he did not know how to use his weapon yet; and he was by temperament and training averse to violence. Their weakness that the man’s weapon was a thing that filled them with fear as an object of terror in their religious cult, by which they had been conditioned to treat one who wielded it with servility. I think they would have shown ‘servility’. … > > In any case a confrontation of Frodo and Sauron would soon have taken place, if the Ring was intact. Its result was inevitable. Frodo would have been utterly overthrown: crushed to dust, or preserved in torment as a gibbering slave. Sauron would not have feared the Ring! It was his own and under his will. Even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for its return to himself. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-inconsistencies/143974/33 "2002-12-21T06:49:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Triskadecamus \* > **There is nothing in the trilogy that implies that Sauron was not invisible, while wearing the ring.** Well, but at the final battle of the Last Alliance, Sauron clearly was wearing the Ring, because Isildur cut it from Sauron’s hand after Gil-Galad and Elendil defeated Sauron. How could they have successfully fought him if they couldn’t see him? Gil-Galad maybe had some special sight, as an elf, but what about Elendil? and how could Isildur see the Ring to cut it off if Sauron were invisible? 😕 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Coriolanus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coriolanus/32/18769_2.png) [@Coriolanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coriolanus)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-inconsistencies/143974/34 "2002-12-21T07:27:53Z")
It’s perhaps unlikely that Sauron could have remained invisible while wielding The One Ring - even while he was crushing Men and Elves by the dozens with a very massive (and visible) mace. He would not have been invisible to Gil-Galad, who had worn Vilya - the mightiest of the Elven Rings of Power - given to Elrond before the great battle. Anyways - Sauron used to corrupt folks by means of his fair appearance, superb (second only to Feanor) language skills and (second only to Feanor) smithy skills. Sauron -wanted- to be visible. Even in the latter Third Age - he still has a visage - The Eye. And now that he’s back, those who wear The One are quite visible to him. He’s got tens of thousands of really bad, visible warriors. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-inconsistencies/143974/35 "2002-12-21T08:20:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Corbomite \* > **Sauron…was crushing Men and Elves by the dozens with a very massive (and visible) mace.** Was this ever stated in the canon? I always thought that this was Jackson’s vision of Sauron’s looks and weaponry. And another thing…How did Elendil kill Sauron? Wasn’t he just a mortal man? If Sauron was so easily taken down in combat then why did he show he face on the battle field? Wouldn’t his side have won if he wouldn’t have died? Could a man during the time the LotR takes place kill Sauron? ---
**Author:** ![Coriolanus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coriolanus/32/18769_2.png) [@Coriolanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coriolanus)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-inconsistencies/143974/36 "2002-12-21T08:45:36Z")
Sauron was a very skilled fighter, smith and speaker. He used to have a fair appearance in the second age where he ruined everyone’s day. Certainly The One ring granted Might - and Sauron was perhaps the mightiest of the Maia (he was Lt. to Morgoth with all the Balrogs about) and could be imposing. Gil-Galad had beaten him previously, and Fingolfin had nearly dropped Morgoth. Gil-Galad got thrashed by Sauron, after maybe putting some hurt on him. Elendil rushed to Gil-Galad’s aid and was also pummeled. Sauron was vulnerable. 3000 years before. He’s still around and doesn’t need The Ring to win. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-inconsistencies/143974/37 "2002-12-21T14:08:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cisco \* > \*\*\*\*Well, since this is a thread about inconsistencies, wouldn’t that be one? All of the seven aren’t accounted for, are they? And certainly Sauron doesn’t hold them. \*\* The seven are either destroyed by dragonfire or held by Sauron. The last to be taken was the one of Durin’s house, and it was kept by Thrain II until he was captured and taken to Sauron’s stronghold of Dol Gulder, where it was taken from him. But the seven never achieved the same success for Sauron that the nine did. Dwarves were crafted by Aüle to resist domination. All the rings did was inflame their desire for wealth, which served Sauron’s purpose at least partially. But it did not give Sauron mastery over the dwarves. So the big guy was pissed. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-inconsistencies/143974/38 "2002-12-21T14:11:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Corbomite \* > \*\* Gil-Galad had beaten him previously, and Fingolfin had nearly dropped Morgoth. \*\* When did Gil-Galad defeat Sauron? He held him at bay at times, and threw back his forces from time to time, but I don’t believe Gil-Galad faced Sauron in battle until his death. In the War of Wrath, there is no mention of individual combat with Sauron, only that Sauron surrendered after the defeat of Morgoth. IIRC, the only ones mentioned to have defeated Sauron in battle were Luthien and Isildur. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-inconsistencies/143974/39 "2002-12-21T14:14:03Z")
\<\< Why couldn’t the Nazgul see Frodo when he had the ring on? They were always drawn to him when he wore it except when he put it on right in front of them. Then they just sort of stabbed around blindly until they happened to poke him. If the ring brought him into the realm of shadows where they lived, wouldn’t it be like a big neon ‘kick me’ sign to them? \>\> In the movie, it is pretty clear that once he has the ring on, their aim improved enormously. ---
**Author:** ![Alias](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a88e4f/32.png) [@Alias](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alias)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-inconsistencies/143974/40 "2002-12-21T15:49:44Z")
THERE ARE NO INCONSISTENCIES IN LORD OF THE RINGS!!! Any time something happens that can’t be explained, we just say “A wizard did it.” Got it? Wizard. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-inconsistencies/143974.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-inconsistencies/143974.md?page=3)