# LOTR: Is Samwise Gamgee the real hero of the books? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 4, 2012, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-is-samwise-gamgee-the-real-hero-of-the-books/630395 "2012-08-04T05:12:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-is-samwise-gamgee-the-real-hero-of-the-books/630395/21 "2012-08-04T09:45:20Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > They claim Bilbo willingly gave up the ring which Bilbo most certainly did not. Didn’t Gandalf comment on the significance of Bilbo having willingly given up the ring? And if I’m recalling correctly,that makes at least one more person who disagrees with you: Tolkein, the guy who wrote the book. But perhaps I misremember. ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-is-samwise-gamgee-the-real-hero-of-the-books/630395/22 "2012-08-04T11:25:29Z")
My thought was point was every one could be hero of sorts. The hobbits all had their heroic moments. Éowyn played her part. Each gave in their own ways to help move things towards the greater good, from the mighty to the less so. ---
**Author:** ![lawoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/35a633/32.png) [@lawoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawoot)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-is-samwise-gamgee-the-real-hero-of-the-books/630395/23 "2012-08-04T11:40:46Z")
[QUOTE=Quartz;15347541Well yes, but I’m talking about **Frodo** , who handed over the Ring at the Council of Elrond. [/QUOTE] Well he doesn’t actually hand it over to anyone else - he just pulls it out and displays it to the others, and the Ring apparently isn’t too happy about THAT: > [@](#): > > _from The Fellowship of The Ring_: > “Bring out the Ring, Frodo!” said Gandalf solemnly. “The time has come. Hold it up, them Boromir will understand the remainder of his riddle.” > > There was a hush, and all turned their eyes upon Frodo. He was shaken by a sudden shame and fear; and he felt a great reluctance to reveal the Ring, and a loathing of its touch. He wished he was far away. The Ring gleamed and flickered as he held it up before them in his trembling hand. > > “Behold Isildur’s Bane!” said Elrond. I imagine the Council would have seen a different hobbit had anyone tried to take it from Frodo. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-is-samwise-gamgee-the-real-hero-of-the-books/630395/24 "2012-08-04T12:41:13Z")
> [@lawoot](#): > > Well he doesn’t actually hand it over to anyone else - he just pulls it out and displays it to the others, In the film he does: he puts it in the middle of the table. > [@](#): > > and the Ring apparently isn’t too happy about THAT: I imagine the Council would have seen a different hobbit had anyone tried to take it from Frodo. I’m not so sure. I think the scene in the book is showing the Ring’s growing influence but not yet mastery - compare it with Frodo’s behaviour after Samwise rescues him from the orcs and gives him back the Ring. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-is-samwise-gamgee-the-real-hero-of-the-books/630395/25 "2012-08-04T14:01:13Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > What you’re missing **Whack-a-mole** , is that this morning George Lucas optioned three new LOTR movie prequels, complete with a Timothy Zahn novelization for each movie, so now the original books are numbered 4, 5, and 6. :eek: > > 😉 “_Fly, you fools!_ (pause) to the theater to watch episode 1…” No, given that we’re going to end up with 3 ‘The Hobbit’ movies with additional material, this serves the purpose of the Prequel Trilogy. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_In_Black)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-is-samwise-gamgee-the-real-hero-of-the-books/630395/26 "2012-08-04T14:07:41Z")
I can’t see Sam as a hero. The parts that stick out the most to me are where Sam is beating or abusing the mentally ill addict. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-is-samwise-gamgee-the-real-hero-of-the-books/630395/27 "2012-08-04T14:45:38Z")
oh sweet jesus. That again. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-is-samwise-gamgee-the-real-hero-of-the-books/630395/28 "2012-08-04T15:41:47Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Is there anyone in Middle Earth who can so much as touch the Ring and not become beholden to it? Tom Bombadill is completely immune to the power of the ring - so much so that he can’t even be trusted to guard it since he’d just forget about it entirely. ---
**Author:** ![Just1Lurk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c0e974/32.png) [@Just1Lurk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just1Lurk)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-is-samwise-gamgee-the-real-hero-of-the-books/630395/29 "2012-08-04T15:42:33Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Didn’t Gandalf comment on the significance of Bilbo having willingly given up the ring? And if I’m recalling correctly,that makes at least one more person who disagrees with you: Tolkein, the guy who wrote the book. But perhaps I misremember. The relevant passage: “A ring of power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but it’s keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to someone else’s care - and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know Bilbo only in history has ever gone beyond playing and really done it. He needed all my help, too.” That’s Gandalf speaking. He helped, but ultimately the act was Bilbo’s. Sam does get credit for doing it unassisted, though. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-is-samwise-gamgee-the-real-hero-of-the-books/630395/30 "2012-08-04T15:56:03Z")
> [@](#): > > , the key factor is does the character learn, grow, and change between the beginning and end of the story? I would argue that Frodo did none of those, and actually of all the characters in all the books, he did them the least of any of the characters. What you’re missing is that it’s not about Frodo’s _growth_ it’s about his _destruction_;’ how he sacrificed everything to the cause and is left with nothing. As the book opens Frodo’s an average, somewhat wealthy hobbit with no particular problems; by the end he just wants to die and end his mental and physical suffering. Yes, there is a change, a huge change - it’s a tragedy though. Lucky for Frodo he can go west instead of just killing himself. Faramir (of the books) claims to have no interest in the ring and says he wouldn’t pick up the ring if he saw it lying in the road. It’s true (book) Faramir makes no effort to seize it from Frodo, but what I can’t recall is if he ever actually gets a look at it. Is he actually immune to its temptation? ---
**Author:** ![standingwave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@standingwave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/standingwave)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-is-samwise-gamgee-the-real-hero-of-the-books/630395/31 "2012-08-04T16:40:27Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Didn’t Gandalf comment on the significance of Bilbo having willingly given up the ring? And if I’m recalling correctly,that makes at least one more person who disagrees with you: Tolkein, the guy who wrote the book. But perhaps I misremember. You remember correctly… Gandalf speaking to Frodo: \* ‘He felt better at once,’ said Gandalf. 'But there is only one Power in this world that knows all about the Rings and their effects; and as far as I know there is no Power in the world that knows all about hobbits. Among the Wise I am the only one that goes in for hobbit-lore: an obscure branch of knowledge, but full of surprises. Soft as butter they can be, and yet sometimes as tough as old tree-roots. I think it likely that some would resist the Rings far longer than most of the Wise would believe. I don’t think you need worry about Bilbo. 'Of course, he possessed the ring for many years, and used it, so it might take a long while for the influence to wear off - before it was safe for him to see it again, for instance. Otherwise, he might live on for years, quite happily: just stop as he was when he parted with it. \*\*For he gave it up in the end of his own accord: an important point. \*_No, I was not troubled about dear Bilbo any more, once he had let the thing go. It is for you that I feel responsible._ ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-is-samwise-gamgee-the-real-hero-of-the-books/630395/32 "2012-08-04T16:56:21Z")
I think that it’s true that Bilbo hesitated at the crucial moment, and that Gandalf used pressure and persuaion. I think it’s also true that Bilbo feared disappointing his dear friend Gandalf, more than he wanted the ring, and that was part & parcel of his essential Hobbitishness and the quasi-immunity to the Ring’s lure that most Hobbits have because they do not desire what the ring provides, ie, Power and Influence. if the ring produced ham and mead and ripe peaches, Hobbits would be on it like white on rice. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-is-samwise-gamgee-the-real-hero-of-the-books/630395/33 "2012-08-04T16:59:33Z")
I agree that Sam carries Frodo and inspires Frodo on numerous occasions when Frodo could not have gone on. But Sam would not have done it if not for his caring for Frodo. Would not have left Hobbiton if not for Frodo. The movies also downplay Merry’s knowing what what going on and making plans prior to leaving the Shire. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-is-samwise-gamgee-the-real-hero-of-the-books/630395/34 "2012-08-04T17:15:33Z")
Tolkein totally bought into the class system of his era. Sam couldn’t be the hero, regardless of what he did, because he wasn’t the right class to be a hero. Frodo could have stayed in the Shire, tossed the Ring to Sam and told him, _“I say there, Sam old boy, I need you to run this Ring over to Mordor and toss it in the volcano. And try to be back by harvest time. That’s a good fellow.”_ and Frodo would still have been the hero of the story because he was the one who sent Sam to destroy the Ring. Tolkein would have just filled the trilogy with chapter after chapter of Frodo sitting in his study reading books about Middle Earth history and linguistics (all of which would have been reproduced in full) with an occasional paragraph about how Sam was making out on his assignment. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-is-samwise-gamgee-the-real-hero-of-the-books/630395/35 "2012-08-04T18:29:32Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > The main difference with Luke though is that his decisions actually drove the plot, his actions actually had an effect, and other characters had to react to what he did. The story of Star Wars is Luke’s story, beginning to end (I’m currently denying the existence of the prequels.) Frodo, on the other hand, was literally dragged along to the inevitable conclusion. In character development terms, the key factor is does the character learn, grow, and change between the beginning and end of the story? I would argue that Frodo did none of those, and actually of all the characters in all the books, he did them the least of any of the characters. It actually makes more sense if Frodo was changed to Bilbo, where the character growth and development had already occurred in The Hobbit, and then he could just trundle along in the next three books. When I read the series, I got this really odd feeling that for some reason, Bilbo was supposed to be the Frodo character, but was replaced at the last minute. Frodo does change a great deal over the course of the story, but he doesn’t grow, he _diminishes_. The mental torment caused by carrying the ring, and the physical injuries from the Witch King and from Shelob destroy the cheerful, if somewhat intense, Hobbit we see at the start of the book, and at the end we have a distant loner, who is unable to take part in the celebrations that happen because he, basically, saved the world. I posted a much longer and more researched [post earlier today](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15347590&postcount=8) in another LOTR thread which touches on Tolkien’s description of Frodo’s melancholy and the necessity of his sailing to the West for some measure of healing. To answer the question in the OP, in the traditional sense, Aragorn is the Hero, at least of what would _normally_ be the main story. However, without the efforts of Sam and Frodo, his efforts would be in vain. Frodo _does_ fail at the last, and in the view of Tolkien, in the letter cited in the post I linked to, the guilt for that failure is one reason for his distress. Sam, of course, could not have carried the ring for the whole of the journey, but never fails in his duty to support Frodo. Ignore the terrible scene in the films where Gollum convinces him to leave for a while, it didn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-is-samwise-gamgee-the-real-hero-of-the-books/630395/36 "2012-08-04T18:31:07Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Tolkein totally bought into the class system of his era. Sam couldn’t be the hero, regardless of what he did, because he wasn’t the right class to be a hero. You don’t even know enough about Tolkien to spell his name, let alone to make sweeping and utterly false statements like this. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-is-samwise-gamgee-the-real-hero-of-the-books/630395/37 "2012-08-04T18:32:54Z")
> [@Khadaji](#): > > My thought was point was every one could be hero of sorts. The hobbits all had their heroic moments. Éowyn played her part. Each gave in their own ways to help move things towards the greater good, from the mighty to the less so. Gimli really didn’t. I always felt like he got shafted in the books, not contributing in any meaningful way, but I may well be misremembering. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-is-samwise-gamgee-the-real-hero-of-the-books/630395/38 "2012-08-04T18:44:56Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > In short the premise is that while Frodo is the ring bearer he could not possibly have made it without Sam. Not just a little help, Sam carries the day repeatedly. > > More than that, and most interesting and something I never thought of before, Sam is one of only two characters to ever willingly give up the One Ring (the other being the enigmatic Tom Bombadil). All other characters who possess the One Ring never willingly hand it over to someone else. Not Bilbo. Not Frodo. Gandalf and Galadriel know better than to even touch it for a second. > > I know Samwise was crucial to Frodo in getting him there but I never considered that in many ways he was the one most responsible for their ultimate success in destroying the One Ring. That it was Samwise who possessed the stronger constitution that not even Frodo had when it came to resisting the One Ring. > > All that said it has been years since I have seen the movies and decades since I read the books so opinions? I always thought so. Sam is the one out there getting the job done, without the navel-gazing that Frodo indulges in. Yes, he’s hard on Gollum, but somebody has to be. Sam’s always the one carrying everything, figuring out logistics, pushing Frodo when he needs a push, and doing the heavy lifting. As to Sam’s supposed stronger constitution, I always figured that Tolkein was a product of his culture, and couldn’t see the laboring classes as complex enough to suffer from the temptations that plagued Bilbo and Frodo and Boromir and Sauron and all the rest. Kind of unfair to Sam. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-is-samwise-gamgee-the-real-hero-of-the-books/630395/39 "2012-08-04T19:34:11Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > Gimli really didn’t. I always felt like he got shafted in the books, not contributing in any meaningful way, but I may well be misremembering. I would say so. He, more than anyone, contributes to ending the old feud between Dwarves and Elves. And of course, he did his fair share of fighting along the way. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-is-samwise-gamgee-the-real-hero-of-the-books/630395/40 "2012-08-04T19:35:10Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You don’t even know enough about Tolkien to spell his name, let alone to make sweeping and utterly false statements like this. My post is vindicated by your apparent inability to rebut it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-is-samwise-gamgee-the-real-hero-of-the-books/630395.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-is-samwise-gamgee-the-real-hero-of-the-books/630395.md?page=3)