# LOTR language questions **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 6, 2019, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-language-questions/830623 "2019-03-06T11:12:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2019, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-language-questions/830623/21 "2019-03-06T19:47:41Z")
“Uncrowned king” isn’t an entirely unheard of term, and seems quite appropriate. I kind of suspect that Tolkien himself wouldn’t object to it. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2019, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-language-questions/830623/22 "2019-03-06T19:52:09Z")
Don’t forget, the northern line (King Arvedui) had already tried to get back on the throne of Gondor back while the kingdom of Arnor still existed. But Gondor told them to take a hike, and gave the throne to a distant cousin of the previous king. Arvedui’s claim was better than Aragorn’s, or at least no worse, and he was actually a king, not some drifter. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2019, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-language-questions/830623/23 "2019-03-06T20:08:19Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I find the singular “they” consistently confusing. And I tend to use “y’all” for plural you, even though I’m a yankee, because that’s often confusing, too. > > Maybe I should just start proactively saying “they all”. I’ll probably have to give in to singular “they” before I kick off, but I really wish there was a viable option. It’s much simpler in Bengali, the language of my ancestors–there are no gendered pronouns. And, really, why do we need gendered pronouns in English? Well, we don’t. We’re just used to it. It’s like how people now introduce themselves and their pronouns at the same time. I can see why it’s happening, but it strikes me as somewhat farcical all the same, because gendered language is unnecessary in the first place. Of all the proposed non-gender-specific singular pronouns, to me the best ones are “e” and “em.” Unlike words like “xe,” they fit pretty cleanly into English. > [@Pleonast](#): > > To expand on this, the original modern English second-person pronouns were “thou/thee/thy” in the singular case and “ye/you/your” in the plural case. But the singular case began to be used only in familiar settings. So the plural case began to be used as singular when in formal settings. Eventually, the familiarity restrictions eliminated usage and plural case came to be used in all settings, and the singular has become archaic. > > Because English still likes to keep a distinction between the singular/plural cases, there is a draw towards a new form for the second-person plural case. Hence innovations like “you-all”, “y’all”, “you-ones”, “younz”, “yinz”, “youse”, “you-guys”, etc. > > Also note, that complaints that using “they” for third-person singular would be confusing are ignoring that modern English has already made the plural-to-singular transition in pronouns once before. While confirming that the singular-plural distinction is important. Maybe we need to introduce “th’all”. 😃 Frankly, I often have half a mind just to start using thou/ye and thee/you in their singular/plural senses. It has far more utility than our current system. I’d also like to bring back the yea/yes and nay/no distinctions. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2019, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-language-questions/830623/24 "2019-03-06T20:29:35Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > “Uncrowned king” isn’t an entirely unheard of term, and seems quite appropriate. I kind of suspect that Tolkien himself wouldn’t object to it. Hey, I have a new byline for my business card now! ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2019, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-language-questions/830623/25 "2019-03-06T21:54:56Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And part of the reason that Merry and Pippen were taken to be nobility is that they are, or at least, the closest thing the Shire has to nobility. Pippen is a Took and the heir to the Thane, the official representative of the King in the Shire… I think we can consider the Thane to be a viceroy, at least in principle–someone designated to exercise the authority of the monarch in the absence of royal direction. As this is analogous to the Stewards’ position in Gondor, it seems fair to say that Pippin is technically equal in rank to Boromir and Faramir, as heir to a hereditary viceregal office. The hobbits, of course, wouldn’t think of it in those terms, but a legal scholar of Gondor might, and it sort of adds another layer to the relationship between Pippin and Denethor. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2019, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-language-questions/830623/26 "2019-03-06T22:03:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Pleonast** : > > Maybe we need to introduce “th’all”. That’s only used by redneck Quakers. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2019, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-language-questions/830623/27 "2019-03-06T22:33:33Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > That being said, I thought it was well enough represented that Pippen offered his service to Denethor with politeness and courtesy, even though he had presumably never been in the presence of any human Lord of any kind; Pippen had previously mostly been shown as a bumbling fool of sorts, this time he came off as maybe not of regal bearing but at least something more than Jar Jar Binks. The point is that Pippin _didn’t_ particularly act with politeness and courtesy in the way that would be expected to a mighty lord, but with that which would be expected between equals. I understand that it’s difficult or impossible to show this clearly in the films, but it’s still the case that a lot of nuance was missed. I mean, it was difficult for Tolkien to show it in the books themselves, and he had to explain it in the Appendices. A Jar Jar Binks type would have been trying and failing to talk and act respectfully, and come across as a joker, Pippin effectively treated the Steward of Gondor exactly the same way he treated Bergil (the soldier’s boy appointed to be his guide). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2019, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-language-questions/830623/28 "2019-03-06T23:27:35Z")
Of course, the flip side of that is that he also treated Bergil the same way that he treated Denethor. A lot of people of Pippen’s presumed station would have treated the commoner Bergil with contempt. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2019, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-language-questions/830623/29 "2019-03-06T23:43:24Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Of course, the flip side of that is that he also treated Bergil the same way that he treated Denethor. A lot of people of Pippen’s presumed station would have treated the commoner Bergil with contempt. Absolutely. It’s also interesting to note that, whilst Sam was deferential to the other Hobbits, they never seemed to take him for granted or take advantage of that. There’s a reason Gandalf loved Hobbits, and and Saruman scorned them. It’s very much a theme with Tolkien that the good (or Good) rulers have absolute respect for those they rule. The whole story arc of Merry and Pippin, from basically spoiled rich teenagers to soldiers for Rohan and Gondor, to actual heroes is one of the more interesting side stories in LOTR. It’s one of the main reasons I think the Scouring Of The Shire is so missed in the films, as it means there’s no proper ending to their arc - or for that matter, to that of Saruman. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-language-questions/830623.md?page=1)