# LOTR: Let's Debate Delivering the Ring to the Cracks of Doom via Eagle **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 31, 2015, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-lets-debate-delivering-the-ring-to-the-cracks-of-doom-via-eagle/711418 "2015-01-31T12:19:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-lets-debate-delivering-the-ring-to-the-cracks-of-doom-via-eagle/711418/21 "2015-01-31T16:26:01Z")
I don’t recall if Sauron had explosives in the books. As for staying at home with drinks instead of performing heroic acts, I think Bombadil and others were staying home during the mid term vote. It would all work out, someone would take care of it. Gin or vodka for the martini? Hmmm…🙂 ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-lets-debate-delivering-the-ring-to-the-cracks-of-doom-via-eagle/711418/22 "2015-01-31T16:26:21Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > It took maybe three guys to beat Sauron; you say that Gandalf is _“not nearly as powerful as Sauron”_; I thus wonder how few guys it would take to beat Gandalf. Those “three guys” were Elendil and Isildur, two of the most powerful of the old Numenoreans, and Gil-galad, an elven king of old. Along with a huge army of elves and men that had broken Sauron’s main power. All of which is irrelevant as to whether Gandalf could “lay waste to Sauron’s army”. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-lets-debate-delivering-the-ring-to-the-cracks-of-doom-via-eagle/711418/23 "2015-01-31T16:30:43Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > (2) have a thread to direct people to when this question comes up in other LOTR threads, to avoid hijacking of those other threads with this debate [What](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=158454) [was](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=179720) [wrong](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=738078) [with](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=642642) [these?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=108518) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-lets-debate-delivering-the-ring-to-the-cracks-of-doom-via-eagle/711418/24 "2015-01-31T16:38:52Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > All of which is irrelevant as to whether Gandalf could “lay waste to Sauron’s army”. He’s got lots of magic, doesn’t he? Dazzles the enemy forces to turn the tide at that battle when the otherwise-hopeless charge wins through against blinded opposition? Defeats the balrog and lives to tell about it via smash-a-stone-bridge might? Has crazy lightning powers? Knows from explosives? ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-lets-debate-delivering-the-ring-to-the-cracks-of-doom-via-eagle/711418/25 "2015-01-31T16:47:17Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > He’s got lots of magic, doesn’t he? Dazzles the enemy forces to turn the tide at that battle when the otherwise-hopeless charge wins through against blinded opposition? Defeats the balrog and lives to tell about it via smash-a-stone-bridge might? Has crazy lightning powers? Knows from explosives? Sticking with the book for now (I liked the movies, but there were some stupid scenes, including the “blind 'em all with my dazzling stick” approach). He defeated the Balrog _and died_. He was sent back by Eru (God) to complete his task. And however powerful Gandalf is, Sauron is more powerful. And has more men. A lot more. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-lets-debate-delivering-the-ring-to-the-cracks-of-doom-via-eagle/711418/26 "2015-01-31T17:21:20Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > Sticking with the book for now (I liked the movies, but there were some stupid scenes, including the “blind 'em all with my dazzling stick” approach). > > He defeated the Balrog _and died_. He was sent back by Eru (God) to complete his task. > > And however powerful Gandalf is, Sauron is more powerful. And has more men. A lot more. And Saruman has an orc hatchery working overtime. He does need a good dental plan, though. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-lets-debate-delivering-the-ring-to-the-cracks-of-doom-via-eagle/711418/27 "2015-01-31T17:39:07Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > He defeated the Balrog _and died_. He was sent back by Eru (God) to complete his task. I feel you’re italicizing the wrong part; anyone who dies beating a powerful monster _and comes back_ to complete his task is a mighty engine of task-completion I don’t want to get in the way of, and patiently explaining to me that the reason he came back is because God Is On His Side doesn’t make me fear him less. > [@](#): > > And however powerful Gandalf is, Sauron is more powerful. And, again, movie-Sauron lost to one guy who swung on him, and book-Sauron lost to three or four brawlers who – well, you say they’re formidable, I guess because they beat Sauron, and you say Sauron is formidable because he lost to them, but they never really _do_ anything other than wave swords around and tackle a guy, right? And that’s when he actually had the ring? He’s weaker without it? ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-lets-debate-delivering-the-ring-to-the-cracks-of-doom-via-eagle/711418/28 "2015-01-31T18:22:51Z")
The point is, Gandalf died fighting an entity considerably less powerful than Sauron (even senza ring). The “being sent back” thing is implied to be a limited-time offer. Eru very rarely gets involved in the affairs of Arda. You can argue little niggling details all you want. The three “brawlers” (who were formidable because they were formidable, de facto) were only able to get to Sauron because they had a big-ass army of very powerful elves and men, which simply doesn’t exist any more. (Movie Sauron lost because he was stupid and arrogant and stuck his big old ring finger right out into sword range.) It doesn’t matter if he’s weaker, because there is no conceivable way to get to him. If Gollum hadn’t jumped in a (lava) lake exactly when he had, the remaining force of opposition (including Gandalf and Aragorn, the closest thing to an old Numenorean we have) would have been eliminated. There are pockets of resistance elsewhere in the east, but nothing like what the Gondorians and Rohirrim could muster. Who’s going to get all up in his business then? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-lets-debate-delivering-the-ring-to-the-cracks-of-doom-via-eagle/711418/29 "2015-01-31T18:45:43Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > The point is, Gandalf died fighting an entity considerably less powerful than Sauron (even senza ring). > [@](#): > > Movie Sauron lost because he was stupid and arrogant and stuck his big old ring finger right out into sword range. I don’t see how you can put those two sentences in the same post. Go watch the scene where the guy swings on Sauron’s hand for the win. No, really: go watch it. See how he moves around? He’s not an impressive specimen of humanity. He doesn’t seem especially swift or strong. He looks like he’d lose a straight fistfight against Aragorn. Scratch that; he looks like he’d lose a fight against Viggo Mortensen. He looks like he’d take a beating from Sean Bean, is what I’m saying. But he’s got a broken sword, and so Sauron goes down in one shot. You think that guy is a tougher customer than the balrog? You think Gandalf is weaker than Sauron minus the ring is weaker than Sauron with the ring is no match for a guy with a broken sword and the skillset of a guy who maybe boxed in college? > [@](#): > > The “being sent back” thing is implied to be a limited-time offer. Eru very rarely gets involved in the affairs of Arda. How do you figure? You said he was sent back by God to complete his task; if completing his task is that important to God, then doesn’t it imply God will keep sending him back to complete said task? If the Big Guy is already getting involved to the point of doing this for that reason, then isn’t it implied He’ll stay involved to the extent of doing the same thing for the same reason? ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-lets-debate-delivering-the-ring-to-the-cracks-of-doom-via-eagle/711418/30 "2015-01-31T18:52:15Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I’m happy to argue 1. _“If it’s just taken out of the game,”_ you write, _“(e.g. by sinking it in the ocean), Sauron still conquers Middle-Earth.”_ Why? The last time Sauron had the ring, he got his ass beat and then crawled off to lick his wounds for thousands of years; if he couldn’t win _with_ the ring, why figure he could win _without_ it? Because unless it’s destroyed, it’ll come back. Throw it in the ocean? A fish will eat it. The fish will be caught by a fisherman, who’ll find it, and eventually it’ll find it’s way back to Sauron. Throw it in a normal volcano? It’ll erupt and someone will stumble across it in the lava. Shoot it into space and it’ll “just happen” to hit a stray meteor which’ll fall on Middle Earth, etc. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-lets-debate-delivering-the-ring-to-the-cracks-of-doom-via-eagle/711418/31 "2015-01-31T19:00:11Z")
I still like feeding it to a troll, exposing him to light and throwing him into the ocean. Hey, what could go wrong? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-lets-debate-delivering-the-ring-to-the-cracks-of-doom-via-eagle/711418/32 "2015-01-31T19:02:12Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I don’t see how you can put those two sentences in the same post. > > Go watch the scene where the guy swings on Sauron’s hand for the win. No, really: go watch it. See how he moves around? He’s not an impressive specimen of humanity. He doesn’t seem especially swift or strong. He looks like he’d lose a straight fistfight against Aragorn. Scratch that; he looks like he’d lose a fight against Viggo Mortensen. He looks like he’d take a beating from Sean Bean, is what I’m saying. > > But he’s got a broken sword, and so Sauron goes down in one shot. > > You think that guy is a tougher customer than the balrog? You think Gandalf is weaker than Sauron minus the ring is weaker than Sauron with the ring is no match for a guy with a broken sword and the skillset of a guy who maybe boxed in college? I put that sentence in parentheses because I am primarily talking about the book. The movies are fun, but they suffer from a fair amount of ill-considered muddling in the story that obscures the nuances. Feel free to discuss the movies, but I am talking about the books. > [@](#): > > How do you figure? You said he was sent back by God to complete his task; if completing his task is that important to God, then doesn’t it imply God will keep sending him back to complete said task? If the Big Guy is already getting involved to the point of doing this for that reason, then isn’t it implied He’ll stay involved to the extent of doing the same thing for the same reason? I figure because Tolkien, the guy who gets to decide these things because he, you know, made it up, pretty heavily implies it. And again, it doesn’t matter, BECAUSE NO ONE CAN GET TO HIM ANYWAY. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-lets-debate-delivering-the-ring-to-the-cracks-of-doom-via-eagle/711418/33 "2015-01-31T19:07:30Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Because unless it’s destroyed, it’ll come back. Throw it in the ocean? A fish will eat it. The fish will be caught by a fisherman, who’ll find it, and eventually it’ll find it’s way back to Sauron. And, again, if after thousands of years he gets the ring back, he’ll – be formidable enough to again lose against a schlub who gets close enough to hit him with a broken sword? And if, after thousands _more_ years he gets the ring back again, he’ll then be formidable enough to get his ass beat hand-to-hand against one guy with half a sword? As per what **fachverwirrt** said, what makes him dangerous is his army; even with the ring, he’s dropped by one guy with a piece of metal; without it, he’s not even that. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-lets-debate-delivering-the-ring-to-the-cracks-of-doom-via-eagle/711418/34 "2015-01-31T19:09:58Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > I put that sentence in parentheses because I am primarily talking about the book. The movies are fun, but they suffer from a fair amount of ill-considered muddling in the story that obscures the nuances. Feel free to discuss the movies, but I am talking about the books. Which one is the OP talking about? > [@](#): > > I figure because Tolkien, the guy who gets to decide these things because he, you know, made it up, pretty heavily implies it. Cite? > [@](#): > > And again, it doesn’t matter, BECAUSE NO ONE CAN GET TO HIM ANYWAY. You say Sauron lost in the movie because he was stupid and arrogant. Is he still stupid and arrogant thousands of years later? ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-lets-debate-delivering-the-ring-to-the-cracks-of-doom-via-eagle/711418/35 "2015-01-31T19:19:08Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > And, again, if after thousands of years he gets the ring back, he’ll – be formidable enough to again lose against a schlub who gets close enough to hit him with a broken sword? And if, after thousands _more_ years he gets the ring back again, he’ll then be formidable enough to get his ass beat hand-to-hand against one guy with half a sword? > > As per what **fachverwirrt** said, what makes him dangerous is his army; even with the ring, he’s dropped by one guy with a piece of metal; without it, he’s not even that. Only the movie has him beaten by a schlub with a sword. Even then, he was kicking some serious ass. Flinging people around with his big ol’ mace, tossing Elendil into a rock hard enough to kill him and throwing Isildur aside like he weighs about six pounds. The only reason he loses is because he puts his ring hand right in Isildur’s face. Sauron lost because of what Sauron did, not because of Isildur. Isilidur was just an opportunist. Say you’re Sauron. You only lost last time because you put your hand within reach of somebody’s sword. Are you going to do it again? ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-lets-debate-delivering-the-ring-to-the-cracks-of-doom-via-eagle/711418/36 "2015-01-31T19:24:47Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Which one is the OP talking about? I don’t know. I also don’t care. I’m discussing what I’m discussing, not what the OP is discussing. However, he specifically mentions “the end of Book I”. which would imply that he is discussing the novel. > [@](#): > > Cite? The fact that he never involves himself in the affairs of Arda. He doesn’t even get involved with the battles against Morgoth, who was considerably more dangerous than Sauron. He is generally content to let Arda go its own way. Even the rest of the Valar are reticent to get involved. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-lets-debate-delivering-the-ring-to-the-cracks-of-doom-via-eagle/711418/37 "2015-01-31T19:28:34Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > Say you’re Sauron. You only lost last time because you put your hand within reach of somebody’s sword. Are you going to do it again? Say you’re Sauron. You only lost last time because you were, well, stupid and arrogant. Are you still stupid and arrogant? Keep in mind that you’re up against a super-powered guy who was _sent back by God_ to stop you, and you’re going to lose. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-lets-debate-delivering-the-ring-to-the-cracks-of-doom-via-eagle/711418/38 "2015-01-31T19:33:58Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > The fact that he never involves himself in the affairs of Arda. He doesn’t even get involved with the battles against Morgoth, who was considerably more dangerous than Sauron. He is generally content to let Arda go its own way. Even the rest of the Valar are reticent to get involved. See, this is where you lose me. If you’re saying he _never_ involves himself in the affairs of Arda, but you note that he brought Gandalf back, then you’re either saying that (a) bringing Gandalf back doesn’t count as involving himself – in which case there’s no problem – or that (b) he doesn’t _never_ involve himself, but that he _sometimes_ involves himself; specifically, when Gandalf’s task is important enough to warrant sending him back. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-lets-debate-delivering-the-ring-to-the-cracks-of-doom-via-eagle/711418/39 "2015-01-31T19:37:23Z")
You know what, never mind. You’re only interested in being argumentative. I didn’t write the books, Tolkien did. Take it up with him. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-lets-debate-delivering-the-ring-to-the-cracks-of-doom-via-eagle/711418/40 "2015-01-31T20:35:03Z")
The real problem is that Gandalf dies and magically comes back. The logic of the narrative ended at that moment. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-lets-debate-delivering-the-ring-to-the-cracks-of-doom-via-eagle/711418.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-lets-debate-delivering-the-ring-to-the-cracks-of-doom-via-eagle/711418.md?page=3)