# LOTR Mythology Tutorial **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 1, 2003, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-mythology-tutorial/172418 "2003-05-01T16:43:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![quasar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/48db29/32.png) [@quasar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quasar)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-mythology-tutorial/172418/1 "2003-05-01T16:43:59Z")
I’m gradually becoming a LOTR fan. I would be really curious to know more about the God (s) / demigods that populate Tolkien’s universe (is Illuvatar the only God or, rather, the supreme God among a pantheon of lesser Gods? Who is Eru (sp?)? What about the Valar?). Where do the God (s) reside? What is their involvement with the world they created? I’m also interested in the creation story of Middle Earth. How did it come about? Is it the whole of creation, or simply one planet among a myriad more? What is this Illuvatar’s song I keep hearing about? Any link / summary you can spare pertaining the mythology not presented in the films (haven’t read any of the books) will be quiet appreciated. Cheers, quasar ---
**Author:** ![Stonebow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Stonebow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stonebow)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-mythology-tutorial/172418/2 "2003-05-01T17:14:53Z")
God = Eru = Illuvatar Valar = archangels = Powerful demigods (liken them to greek pantheon in attributes/power). the archangel thing fits very well since the ‘satan’ figure is originally the most powerful of these. maiar = angels = nymphs/faeries, etc. some good, some corrupted by ‘satan’ (Melkor/Morgoth) like Sauron. if you read the first chaper in the Silmarillion, you should be set- the Valaquenta (song/tale of the Valar)- it gives you the ‘in the beginning’ story. very moving. Again, the Silmarillion should answer all of your questions. and then some. try this site. this link is directly to the ‘valaquenta,’ but the rest of the site has info as well. [http://www.valaquenta.com/quenta\_valaquenta.html](http://www.valaquenta.com/quenta_valaquenta.html) ---
**Author:** ![Stonebow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Stonebow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stonebow)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-mythology-tutorial/172418/3 "2003-05-01T17:16:58Z")
you can also try this one. [http://balder.prohosting.com/jjck25/lotr/Sil1.htm](http://balder.prohosting.com/jjck25/lotr/Sil1.htm) ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-mythology-tutorial/172418/4 "2003-05-01T17:47:45Z")
You need to have some fun with Google, my friend. [Here](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=The+creation+of+Middle+Earth) are the results of a google search on the terms “The creation of Middle Earth”, and [here](http://www.google.com/search?q=song+of+iluvatar%2C+tolkien&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8') are the results of a search on the terms “song of iluvatar” and “Tolkien” (got to put Tolkien’s name in there to weed out most of the New Age musicians ;)). I found [this very nice timeline](http://www.factmonster.com/spot/lotr-timeline.html) about the creation of Middle-Earth from the first search, and [a NYTimes book review](http://www.nytimes.com/1977/10/23/books/tolkien-silmarillion.html) of _The Silmarillion_ that gives a few plot points (without spoiling the history) from the second. About _The Silmarillion_: this is your basic history book of Middle-Earth, and you will probably want to read it once you have finished _The Return of the King_ (don’t be tempted to skip the appendices to TROTK; they are quite rewarding). And of course, hang around Cafe Society and search for threads about LOTR and Middle Earth. Helpful hint: if you search all posts by **Qagdop the Mercotan** and **Triskadecamus** \*, you will find many threads that they have participated in regarding the mythology created by JRRT. Click on the thread titles, and you will learn more than you are probably prepared to digest in a single sitting about the subject. It’s quite a feast. \*And many other prominent and knowledgeable posters, who I pray will not feel slighted by my not mentioniing their names here. ---
**Author:** ![Fingolfin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/eada6e/32.png) [@Fingolfin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fingolfin)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-mythology-tutorial/172418/5 "2003-05-01T18:20:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Fingolfin challenges Morgoth to single combat. Fingolfin wounds Morgoth 7 times before he himself is killed. Fingolfin’s body is rescued by Thorondor, king of the giant eagles, who scars Morgoth’s face with his talons. That’s right, single combat my friend. I knocked on his door and said, “You, me. Outside. Right now!” That takes some balls man. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-mythology-tutorial/172418/6 "2003-05-01T18:32:44Z")
Out of idle curiousity, how much have you read? On the one hand, you’ve heard of Illuvatar and the Great Music, which are only barely mentioned (and not by name) in the _Lord of the Rings_, but on the other hand, it doesn’t look like you’ve read the _Silmarillion_ yet. Is what you know just picked up from other threads here? ---
**Author:** ![Peg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Peg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peg)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-mythology-tutorial/172418/7 "2003-05-01T18:34:04Z")
As many have mentioned, _The Silmarillion_ is your key to Middle-earth history. People complain about how it’s dry and hard to get through, but I found it really fascinating. Treat it as though you as reading a history text and you’ll be fine. For an online Who’s Who in Tolkienverse resource, I like The Encyclopedia of Arda. (See: [www.glyphweb.com/arda/](http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/) because I am technically unsavvy.) ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-mythology-tutorial/172418/8 "2003-05-01T18:35:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kaylasdad99 \* > **Qagdop the Mercotan** That’s **Qadgop**! **Gop! Gop! Gop!** \<\\> Aure entuluva! Maiar = nymphs and fairies? Gandalf as a nymph? The balrog as a fairy? Less mighty members of the Ainur race works for me as a definition for Maiar. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-mythology-tutorial/172418/9 "2003-05-01T18:38:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Qadgop the Mercotan \* > \*\*That’s **Qadgop**! **Gop! Gop! Gop!** > \<\\> > \*\* YIKES! My most abject and humble apologies. Do forgive me, Doctor **Qadgop**. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-mythology-tutorial/172418/10 "2003-05-01T18:51:45Z")
no sweat, **kaylasdad**. 'Tis merely an affectation. Meanwhile to answer the OP’s question: Ilu Ilúvatar en káre eldain a fírimoin ar antaróta mannar Valion: númessier. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-mythology-tutorial/172418/11 "2003-05-01T19:17:49Z")
To answer some of the OP’s questions without requiring that the poster get through the Valaquenta: There’s a 3-level hierarchy of immortals. Eru Iluvatar, aka The One. God, in other words. Then The Valar, who are very similar to Greek or Norse gods: each has an area of expertise, and they often take human shape (something Eru never does). Each Valar has a staff of subordinates, called the Maiar. Sauron, Saruman and Gandalf are Maia. I don’t think Tolkien ever mentions anything in the Universe other than Middle Earth. There’s just ME, then Ea, the physical universe–then there’s the Void beyond, where Melkor is hanging out. The Valar and the Maiar dwell in Middle Earth in the Undying Lands to the West. These lands are no longer reachable by any other than the elves, ever since the drowning of Numenor when the world was bent. But they’re still part of the world. (Trivia of some note: when Gandalf describes what happened to him after he fought the Balrog, he says (paraphrasing) that he wandered long, out of space and time. This implies that he didn’t go to the Undying Lands from whence he came, where space and time still apply–but rather, he was walking with Eru Iluvatar himself.) Ditto the recommendation of the Encyclopedia of Arda. An excellent site. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-mythology-tutorial/172418/12 "2003-05-01T20:07:14Z")
Sorry, **jsc** , but Middle-Earth signifies the middle region of Arda where the events of Silmarillion and LOTR play out. Arda is roughly ‘the world’ while Ea is the creation which was made in Ainulindale and exists outside the timeless halls. All of Arda is within Ea, but not all of Ea is Arda. Valinor, where the Valar and Maiar and the high elves dwell is not part of middle earth. Neither are most of the undying lands, including Cuivienen and Hildorien, where the Children of Iluvatar (Elves and Men) were born. As for where Gandalf went after his body died, he did indeed wander outside space and time, implying a return to Iluvatar’s timeless halls. But there was also the implication in his statement that he did go west, befgre being sent back to middle-earth too; not a tough trick for one who was probably recently chatting up The One. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-mythology-tutorial/172418/13 "2003-05-01T20:16:11Z")
Thanks for the clarification, **Q**. I muddled ME (the continent) with Arda (the world). Agreed that Valinor is not part of middle earth–but is it part of Arda? Or to put it another way, is it part of “the circles of the world”? I always pictured it as a physical place where time passes, even though all who dwell there (with 2 or 3 exceptions) are immortal. So it’s part of the world, although on another plane. (what does your handle mean, anyway?) ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-mythology-tutorial/172418/14 "2003-05-01T20:22:39Z")
Sorry, didn’t mean to imply that Cuivienen and Hildorien are a part of the undying lands. They are not. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-mythology-tutorial/172418/15 "2003-05-01T20:27:38Z")
Valinor was originally part of Arda as it was created. After Akallabeth (the downfall of numenor, or Atalante) Valinor was removed from the circles of the world. But I guess it would still be considered part of Arda, and is definitely supposed to be part of the creation after Dagor Dagorath when Arda is to be remade, unmarred by Melkor’s malice. ---
**Author:** ![quasar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/48db29/32.png) [@quasar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quasar)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-mythology-tutorial/172418/16 "2003-05-01T21:17:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chronos \* > \*\*Out of idle curiousity, how much have you read? On the one hand, you’ve heard of Illuvatar and the Great Music, which are only barely mentioned (and not by name) in the _Lord of the Rings_, but on the other hand, it doesn’t look like you’ve read the _Silmarillion_ yet. Is what you know just picked up from other threads here? \*\* After watching FOTR (which I initially didn’t like, due to its slow pace), I tried to read the book, yet its overly descriptive prose got the best of me by page 10. Have never picked it up since. Recently I decided to watch TTT, knowing full well what to expect: a long, slowly paced film (my concentration span is quite short, thus I quickly lose myself in idle thoughts when a film does not move along). Anyways, I was pleased with it, which convinced me to give Fellowship another chance. This time I liked it. After some casual reading of several threads and talking to some friends, I grew rather interested in the mythology behind the epic narrated by the film. So yes, I haven’t read the Silmarillion, the miniscule knowledge I presently have having been acquired through reading the lucid posts that abound in Cafe Society. And now, if you excuse me, gotta go. I have a lot to read. 🙂 Thanks to **Stonebow** , **kaylasdad99** , \*\* Peg \*\*, **Qadgop the Mercotan** , and **jsc1953** , for all the informed replies as well as the great links. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-mythology-tutorial/172418/17 "2003-05-01T22:13:59Z")
\<\< As many have mentioned, The Silmarillion is your key to Middle-earth history. \>\> Sorry, I’d like to disagree slightly… that’s the key to Middle-earth mythology, not necessarily history. It’s the stories and songs that the elves (mostly) tell about ancient days. ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-mythology-tutorial/172418/18 "2003-05-01T22:40:27Z")
I’m surprised that no one has linked to [The Encyclopedia of Arda](http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/), the most awesome reference to all things Arda I’ve ever seen. Granted, I’m a recent Tolkien fan, but trying to compensate in volume. After reading LoTR twice as well as The Silmarillion and most of Unfinished Tales, I still find that site to be a wonderful thing. ---
**Author:** ![Super\_Gnat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Super\_Gnat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Super_Gnat)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-mythology-tutorial/172418/19 "2003-05-02T00:13:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Qadgop the Mercotan \* > \*\*Valinor was originally part of Arda as it was created. After Akallabeth (the downfall of numenor, or Atalante) Valinor was removed from the circles of the world. But I guess it would still be considered part of Arda, and is definitely supposed to be part of the creation after Dagor Dagorath when Arda is to be remade, unmarred by Melkor’s malice. \*\* [hijack]Atalante is another name for Numenor? That’s so cool![/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-mythology-tutorial/172418/20 "2003-05-02T00:22:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Qadgop the Mercotan \* > \*\ ***Gop! Gop! Gop!** > \*\* :dubious: I didn’t know you were a Republican, **Qadgop** GD&R Fenris [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-mythology-tutorial/172418.md?page=2)