# LOTR Question: Gandalf v. Witch King **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 1, 2008, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-gandalf-v-witch-king/475191 "2008-12-01T16:15:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![MichaelQReilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@MichaelQReilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelQReilly)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-gandalf-v-witch-king/475191/1 "2008-12-01T16:15:19Z")
I caught about 15 minutes of ROTK on tv last night and it re-raised a question I have thought about for quite some time. In the movie (and also in the books IIRC), the Witch King seemed to be spoiling for a fight with Gandalf. So, had the two of them battled head to head, who would have won? Gandalf was a Maia, and theoretically the equal of Sauron. According the [FAQ of the Rings](http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q79-Arose), with the ring Gandalf could have deposed Sauron, but he didn’t because knew what would happen and plus he was forbidden from directly intervening. But when he did fight another Maia, the Balrog, he won. So, based on this, and the fact that Gandalf had one of the three rings, it seems like he could have fairly easily stomped the Witch King. On the other hand, the Witch King was a really powerful Numenorian, somebody pretty powerful in his own right. IIRC, Sauron feared what Aragorn, another Numenorian, could do if he had the ring. Plus, in the past, other really powerful humans had gone toe to toe with Maia and held their own. Combine this with the fact that the Witch King had his own, albeit inferior, ring, and that his power may have been “augmented” by Sauron, and becomes less clear that a Gandalf stomping would be certain. So, based on what we know, do we have any definitive way to call a winner? I kind of lean in the direction that since the Witch King ulimately got smacked down by a woman and a hobbit, that Gandalf surely would have won had they battled, but I am open to change my mind. Thoughts, opinions? ---
**Author:** ![Cerowyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/82dd89/32.png) [@Cerowyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerowyn)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-gandalf-v-witch-king/475191/2 "2008-12-01T16:43:10Z")
Olórin/Gandalf was not equal to Mairon/Sauron in power, although he was considered the “wisest” of the Maiar. Tolkien specifically says that Sauron was of a “far higher order” than the five Maiar who came later as Wizards to Middle Earth. As well, there’s a recurring theme in Tolkien’s work of evil beings investing their power in their minions, and it’s certain that Sauron became more powerful under Melkor/Morgoth. Similarly, Sauron invested a measure of his own power in the Rings, including the one that perverted the Witch King to his service. It can be guessed that the Witch King of Angmar was of the same order of power as Aragorn (e.g. powerful Númenórean king, etc.). The Balrog was a Maiar twisted to Morgoth’s service (and IIRC, at least on of the Balrog was an important lieutenant in Morgoth’s forces), and so was probably more powerful than she/he/it was before coming to Middle Earth, but it’s hard to judge how that compares to Gandalf wielding Narya. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelQReilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@MichaelQReilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelQReilly)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-gandalf-v-witch-king/475191/3 "2008-12-01T16:51:33Z")
> [@Cerowyn](#): > > Olórin/Gandalf was not equal to Mairon/Sauron in power, although he was considered the “wisest” of the Maiar. Tolkien specifically says that Sauron was of a “far higher order” than the five Maiar who came later as Wizards to Middle Earth. I didn’t realize that, thanks for clarifying. > [@Cerowyn](#): > > As well, there’s a recurring theme in Tolkien’s work of evil beings investing their power in their minions, and it’s certain that Sauron became more powerful under Melkor/Morgoth. > > Similarly, Sauron invested a measure of his own power in the Rings, including the one that perverted the Witch King to his service. It can be guessed that the Witch King of Angmar was of the same order of power as Aragorn (e.g. powerful Númenórean king, etc.). > > The Balrog was a Maiar twisted to Morgoth’s service (and IIRC, at least on of the Balrog was an important lieutenant in Morgoth’s forces), and so was probably more powerful than she/he/it was before coming to Middle Earth, but it’s hard to judge how that compares to Gandalf wielding Narya. All of which goes to my point that it might, in fact, be a tough fight to call. Another issue to ponder, since the Witch King’s will was “utterly subservient” to Sauron, it stands to reason that Sauron wanted the Witch King to battle Gandalf. This could mean that Sauron thought the Witch King could win. Alternately, maybe he wanted to “feel out” Gandalf and didn’t care if he had to sacrifice the Witch King to do so. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-gandalf-v-witch-king/475191/4 "2008-12-01T16:59:26Z")
The Witch King may well have believed himself the match for Gandalf and Gandalf the Grey may have been hard pressed to defeat him. However Gandalf the White had far less restriction to complete his task and probably would have had little problems winning a direct confrontation. The Witch King however probably did not know who or what Gandalf was. It is extremely unlikely. He had rarely met defeat before and that seemed to mostly involve Glorfindel. He was probably quite arrogant in both his power and the prophesy about his death. [QUOTE=Cerowyn] Olórin/Gandalf was not equal to Mairon/Sauron in power, although he was considered the “wisest” of the Maiar. Tolkien specifically says that Sauron was of a “far higher order” than the five Maiar who came later as Wizards to Middle Earth. [/QUOTE] Where did you fine this? It does not sound quite right to me. I think that came from a letter and some other writings counter it. Sauron was very strong among the Maiar but a “far higher order” would be a member of the Valar. I have the strong impression that Saruman, Gandalf and one of the Blue Wizards were powerful and Radagast and the other Blue Wizards were lesser Maiar. It is possible in the letter Tolkien meant that Sauron was on a much higher order of power with his Ring and with the Wizards being under many restrictions. ---
**Author:** ![Cerowyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/82dd89/32.png) [@Cerowyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerowyn)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-gandalf-v-witch-king/475191/5 "2008-12-01T17:01:08Z")
Ack. Missed the edit window trying to make my post more cogent. > [@Cerowyn](#): > > Similarly, Sauron invested a measure of his own power in the Rings, including the one that perverted the Witch King to his service. It can be guessed that the Witch King of Angmar was of the same order of power as Aragorn (e.g. powerful Númenórean king, etc.). Sauron feared Aragorn, especially that he might take and master the One Ring. Even a lesser Númenórean, with the power of the Ring, would be a mighty foe! > [@Cerowyn](#): > > The Balrog was a Maiar twisted to Morgoth’s service (and IIRC, at least on of the Balrog was an important lieutenant in Morgoth’s forces), and so was probably more powerful than she/he/it was before coming to Middle Earth, but it’s hard to judge how that compares to Gandalf wielding Narya. Gandalf v1.0 was “killed” in defeating the Balrog, and somehow I can’t see the Witch King having the same difficulty. So, in conclusion, I have no idea. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Cerowyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/82dd89/32.png) [@Cerowyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerowyn)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-gandalf-v-witch-king/475191/6 "2008-12-01T17:03:41Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Where did you fine this? It does not sound quite right to me. I think that came from a letter and some other writings counter it. Sauron was very strong among the Maiar but a “far higher order” would be a member of the Valar. I have the strong impression that Saruman, Gandalf and one of the Blue Wizards were powerful and Radagast and the other Blue Wizards were lesser Maiar. It is possible in the letter Tolkien meant that Sauron was on a much higher order of power with his Ring and with the Wizards being under many restrictions. From [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauron), which references _Letters_: > [@](#): > > Though less mighty than the chief Valar, he was more powerful than many of his fellow Maiar; Tolkien noted that he was of a “far higher order” than the Maiar who later came to Middle-earth as the Wizards Gandalf and Saruman." ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-gandalf-v-witch-king/475191/7 "2008-12-01T17:05:57Z")
> [@Cerowyn](#): > > From [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauron), which references _Letters_: Thank you, I thought that might be the source. Based on other writings that letter is somewhat questionable. I’ll check the exact letter tonight and reread it. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-gandalf-v-witch-king/475191/8 "2008-12-01T17:14:21Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > The Witch King may well have believed himself the match for Gandalf and Gandalf the Grey may have been hard pressed to defeat him. However Gandalf the White had far less restriction to complete his task and probably would have had little problems winning a direct confrontation. > > The Witch King however probably did not know who or what Gandalf was. It is extremely unlikely. He had rarely met defeat before and that seemed to mostly involve Glorfindel. He was probably quite arrogant in both his power and the prophesy about his death. Remember, the Wraiths also got their butts kicked by a river. Although, now that I think about it, in the book it was Elrond using one of the Three, not Arwen chanting the rosary, so that kind of moots the point. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-gandalf-v-witch-king/475191/9 "2008-12-01T17:23:55Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Remember, the Wraiths also got their butts kicked by a river. > > Although, now that I think about it, in the book it was Elrond using one of the Three, not Arwen chanting the rosary, so that kind of moots the point. And it was Glorfindel that chased them into the water. He also defeated the Witch King in Angmar with an Alliance of Gondor, Rivendell and the remnants of Arnor (The Kingdom of Arthedain). That was when the prophesy was first told. It was told by Glorfindel in fact. “Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall.” He foretold to King Eärnur of Gondor. BTW: It was Elrond with some help from Gandalf that unleashed the flood. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-gandalf-v-witch-king/475191/10 "2008-12-01T17:53:39Z")
> [@MichaelQReilly](#): > > I caught about 15 minutes of ROTK on tv last night and it re-raised a question I have thought about for quite some time. In the movie (and also in the books IIRC), the Witch King seemed to be spoiling for a fight with Gandalf. So, had the two of them battled head to head, who would have won? Movie Witch-King would have kicked movie Gandalf’s butt.Perhaps you saw the theatrical edition. In the extended edition, they meet, Shadowfax throws Gandalf (!), whose staff shatters (!), W-K raises a flaming sword and… has to answer a very important call.In the book, there is no unequivocal indication of one having the upper hand over the other.they face off, talk some smack, W-K raises a flaming sword and… has to answer a very important call. Gandalf is never thrown to the ground, nor his staff shattered. > [@](#): > > I kind of lean in the direction that since the Witch King ulimately got smacked down by a woman and a hobbit, that Gandalf surely would have won had they battled, but I am open to change my mind. Thoughts, opinions? Movie W-K got smacked down by a woman and a hobbit, but book W-K got smacked down by a woman, and a hobbit wielding a very special anti-Witch King dagger. ---
**Author:** ![RiverRunner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/977dab/32.png) [@RiverRunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RiverRunner)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-gandalf-v-witch-king/475191/11 "2008-12-01T18:07:05Z")
I have to go with **What Exit?** on this one. It always seemed to me that the Witch-King was setting himself up for a beating by challenging Gandalf. On the other hand, WK had a monstrous reptilian flying thing to help him, and he was backed by a huge army, who could come to his aid. One-on-one, Gandalf could take him, though. RR ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-gandalf-v-witch-king/475191/12 "2008-12-01T18:21:00Z")
The prophecy meant that even if Gandalf could take down the WK, the WK would not be “killed”. Now, of course, you could argue that Gandalf was not really a “man”, however, he certainly was in the form of a man. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-gandalf-v-witch-king/475191/13 "2008-12-01T18:24:32Z")
And Gandalf could resurrect. So unless the WK had some permanent form of destruction available, killing Gandalf was only a temporary fix. ---
**Author:** ![tr0psn4j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@tr0psn4j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tr0psn4j)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-gandalf-v-witch-king/475191/14 "2008-12-01T18:28:19Z")
> [@](#): > > I kind of lean in the direction that since the Witch King ulimately got smacked down by a woman and a hobbit, that Gandalf surely would have won had they battled, but I am open to change my mind. Thoughts, opinions? Boromir gets killed by random orcs. Shit happens. ---
**Author:** ![robardin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@robardin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robardin)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-gandalf-v-witch-king/475191/15 "2008-12-01T18:32:07Z")
So basically, you’re asking if these Nazgul – and their Captain specifically – are all that they make out to be? Heed the words of a wise speaker: _You speak of what is deep beyond the reach of your muddy dreams… Nazgul! Ah! All that they make out! One day you’ll wish that you had not said that._ ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-gandalf-v-witch-king/475191/16 "2008-12-01T21:12:46Z")
I doubt either coudl have really taken down the other. Neither was totally invincible, but probably Gandalf’s weaponry couldn’t have permanently nuked the W-K, while W-K couldn’t keep Gandalf from returning. At this stage, however, the death of the W-K would not have stopped the invasion, while Gandalf’s absense would have ensured evil’s victory over the White City. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-gandalf-v-witch-king/475191/17 "2008-12-01T21:48:01Z")
I think it was one of those “self-fulfilling” type of prophecies. Since the Witch-King thought he couldn’t be hindered by the hand of man, he would have focused all his sorcery on wards against superhuman threats such as Maiar-- enemies much more powerful than any mortal man. It never even occurred to him that he might be taken out by someone physically _weaker_ than a mortal man. Of course he felt safe disrespecting Gandalf; he was carrying his +5 Mace vs. Istari, and wearing his Ring of Protection Against Balrogs, and his Crown of Commanding/Rebuking Numenorean Heirs-in-Exile. Then Éowyn stands up and says her piece: > [@](#): > > ‘But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund’s daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.’ > > The winged creature screamed at her, but the Ringwraith made no answer, and was silent as if in sudden doubt… “Silent as if in sudden doubt” is ancient Angmarese for “Oh, shit.” ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-gandalf-v-witch-king/475191/18 "2008-12-01T22:16:23Z")
But the Witch-King’s sorcery would have protected him against any harm from Eowyn had not Merry wounded him with the special dagger, at which point anyone with a sword and sufficient courage might have taken him out. It wasn’t as if the Witch-King decided to use only a spell of Protection Against Adult Human Males, leaving himself vulnerable to women, hobbits, children, pixies, wizaards, Bombadils, badgers… > [@](#): > > No other blade, not through mightier hands wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will. ETA: The above applies to the book. Since there was no special dagger from the barrow downs in the movies, one could assume that the Witch-King did indeed foolishly use a spell of PAAHM. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-gandalf-v-witch-king/475191/19 "2008-12-01T22:22:52Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > And Gandalf could resurrect. Not really. He was “sent back” for a brief time once - no guarantee it would happen again - and it was a while before he was able to return to action. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-gandalf-v-witch-king/475191/20 "2008-12-01T23:08:08Z")
Gandalf coming back was really a once-off and a very special situation. Remember, he died fighting the Balrog and had to be revived by Eru. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-gandalf-v-witch-king/475191.md?page=2)